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Maxillary recession is more evolved. The ideal is not excessive "forward growth".

modified

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As discussed in prior threads, I think the preoccupation of "forward growth" is mostly a Lookism obsession and not one shared by most cultures or civilizations.

In fact, excessive "forward growth" appears to me to be a less evolved trait.

Neanderthals and earlier primates had exceptional "forward growth":


Current humans with such degrees of "forward growth" are considered apelike and baboonish (eg. Brock Lesnar, black people).



In fact, we see from evolution, that midface and maxillary recession have been a natural part of our species' progression:



The Greeks and Romans were seen as some of the greatest artists and sculptors in human history. We have still existing today proof of what they considered ideal:





Two noticeable trends become obvious when observing these pieces of work. First, they clearly did not like nasions. Second, there is no Jordan Barrett or Brock Lesnar "forward growth" to be seen.

Again, as pointed out in other threads, there is also no "forward growth" of this nature in Hollywood.

The ideal follows a slightly more "forward grown" alignment than the Greeks/Romans preferred, but also one that is almost perfectly predicted by modern cephalometric science:



I have seen it theorized on this site that the Lookism obsession with "forward growth" started with Mike Mew and his ridiculous broscience and snake oil theories about how if you pay him money and stick your tongue into your palate you will develop a Chadjaw.

I find this theory plausible. I think the Lookism obsession with "forward growth" is equivalent to the obsession on /fa/ with dark monochrome outfits. On /fa/ they think this is the high expression of fashionability. IRL, they are seen as an odd echo chamber detached from reality.



Is recession a potential problem? Yes absolutely. My maxilla has already been brought forward on my last surgery and may come forward yet again. But I think the false premise that we should be aiming for Jordan Barrett levels of baboon-like "forward growth" should be considered past expiry.

To conclude, I leave you with two men who have made a considerable living off their faces in Hollywood:



The Jordan Barrett and Mike Mew fanclub would call Tom Cruise recessed yet the world has voted and he is top tier good looking. Looks almost like those Greek/Roman statues with that alignment, doesn't he?



Similarly, Eric Bana would be called receded. I'll concede Eric Bana is pushing it a bit. Brad Pitt's comparatively baboon midface cucks him in Troy, but Bana's still considered top tier handsome with this alignment.

I think having "forward growth" represents a potential source of primitive appeal, like DOM features, and this certainly increases fighting success. Hence it is common in fighting sports like the UFC.

However, "forward growth" is not reliable at all as an indicator of good facial harmony, alignment, or attractiveness. Overall, the cephalometric norm should remain the ideal and looksmaxers should strive for that, rather than excessively prominent "forward grown" maxillas or chins.
 

asiancel

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they're not recessed, you can tell by their nose angle. they have considerable lefort area 2 forward growth, it's what responsible for their extremely high nose bridge and protruding brows. if they had forward grown bottom jaws as well, they'd be even better looking.
 

UglyNormalFag

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Yeah, you want a non-recessed face but at the same time an anteface definitely isn't ideal
 

asiancel

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all those guys would have ante faces had they not had poor oral habits, cruise had a terrible mouthful of crooked teeth as a teenager and he had it fixed. his lower jaw never fully recovered from all the extractions and realignment work.

cruise and bana would have a face similar to chris carmack if they had better developed jaws.

the reason jordan barret looks like shit is because his jaws are forward grown due to modern orthodontics and jaw surgery being able to preserve his forward growth, but they are not as developed as carmacks in terms of size and mass. he doesn't have the right proportions for an anteface
 

lolatmylife

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UglyNormalFag said:
Yeah, you want a non-recessed face but at the same time an anteface definitely isn't ideal

really? antefaces look so majestic in real life, i can't stop staring be it male or female.
 

modified

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asiancel said:
all those guys would have ante faces had they not had poor oral habits, cruise had a terrible mouthful of crooked teeth as a teenager and he had it fixed. his lower jaw never fully recovered from all the extractions and realignment work.

cruise and bana would have a face similar to chris carmack if they had better developed jaws.

the reason jordan barret looks like shit is because his jaws are forward grown due to modern orthodontics and jaw surgery being able to preserve his forward growth, but they are not as developed as carmacks in terms of size and mass. he doesn't have the right proportions for an anteface

See it's crap like that that never lets me take anything you ever say seriously. Every one of your posts I feel like I'm reading coming from an alien who is studying humanity but doesn't quite grasp it.

No one with half a brain would ever say Jordan Barrett "looks like shit". The guy is one of the top male models in the world. He is paid more than any of us ever will be just to be good looking. He is clearly good looking.

All I am saying is that type of alignment should not be considered the ideal.

Scientific research consistently suggests that the most ideal and beautiful faces to the broadest range of viewers are the most average ones, which is the same science (population average) that cephalometrics is based on. That should be the ideal.

The science of facial averages is actually evidence based and the ideal it presents has been relatively stable across cultures and centuries.
 

OnTheRun

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Stop coping saying forward growth is all about being DOM and Mike Mew, it's not. Who the fuck wants to be a meltcel? Tom Cuck would look better with a forward maxilla. Maybe if he had a forward maxilla he wouldn't need to get so much gay botox and God knows what else for his saggy skin.

Just lol if you think these guys would look better with a recessed maxilla



 

modified

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OnTheRun said:
Stop coping saying forward growth is all about being DOM and Mike Mew, it's not. Who the fuck wants to be a meltcel? Tom Cuck would look better with a forward maxilla. Maybe if he had a forward maxilla he wouldn't need to get so much gay botox and God knows what else for his saggy skin.

Just lol if you think these guys would look better with a recessed maxilla

I don't think it's coping. Facts are:

- Evolution has been heading towards maxillary retrusion over millenia.
- Science suggests mathematically average faces (cephalometric norms) have the broadest appeal.
 

OnTheRun

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modified said:
OnTheRun said:
Stop coping saying forward growth is all about being DOM and Mike Mew, it's not. Who the fuck wants to be a meltcel? Tom Cuck would look better with a forward maxilla. Maybe if he had a forward maxilla he wouldn't need to get so much gay botox and God knows what else for his saggy skin.

Just lol if you think these guys would look better with a recessed maxilla

I don't think it's coping. Facts are:

- Evolution has been heading towards maxillary retrusion over millenia.
- Science suggests mathematically average faces (cephalometric norms) have the broadest appeal.

Then tell Arnett you want the meltcel look. Don't worry, botox and fillers will help you coping with the NL folds and saggy skin that comes with a receded maxilla.
 

modified

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OnTheRun said:
modified said:
I don't think it's coping. Facts are:

- Evolution has been heading towards maxillary retrusion over millenia.
- Science suggests mathematically average faces (cephalometric norms) have the broadest appeal.

Then tell Arnett you want the meltcel look. Don't worry, botox and fillers will help you coping with the NL folds and saggy skin that comes with a receded maxilla.

Nasolabial folding is more a function of narrow and weak cheekbone support. It can happen to anyone irrespective of maxillary alignment.





Sagging is a function of collagen strength and facial wear and tear.

Everyone gets old.
 

asiancel

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modified said:
asiancel said:
all those guys would have ante faces had they not had poor oral habits, cruise had a terrible mouthful of crooked teeth as a teenager and he had it fixed. his lower jaw never fully recovered from all the extractions and realignment work.

cruise and bana would have a face similar to chris carmack if they had better developed jaws.

the reason jordan barret looks like shit is because his jaws are forward grown due to modern orthodontics and jaw surgery being able to preserve his forward growth, but they are not as developed as carmacks in terms of size and mass. he doesn't have the right proportions for an anteface

See it's crap like that that never lets me take anything you ever say seriously. Every one of your posts I feel like I'm reading coming from an alien who is studying humanity but doesn't quite grasp it.

No one with half a brain would ever say Jordan Barrett "looks like shit". The guy is one of the top male models in the world. He is paid more than any of us ever will be just to be good looking. He is clearly good looking.

All I am saying is that type of alignment should not be considered the ideal.

Scientific research consistently suggests that the most ideal and beautiful faces to the broadest range of viewers are the most average ones, which is the same science (population average) that cephalometrics is based on. That should be the ideal.

The science of facial averages is actually evidence based and the ideal it presents has been relatively stable across cultures and centuries.



also the broadest appeal doesn't mean the most beautiful, it just means the broadest appeal, which is influenced by plenty of factors like media pushing that philtrumcel george clooney as sexiest man alive.

the ante face embodies facial beauty in a much more objective way. it indicates high health and genetic quality.
 

OnTheRun

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modified said:
OnTheRun said:
Then tell Arnett you want the meltcel look. Don't worry, botox and fillers will help you coping with the NL folds and saggy skin that comes with a receded maxilla.

Nasolabial folding is more a function of narrow and weak cheekbone support. It can happen to anyone irrespective of maxillary alignment.





Sagging is a function of collagen strength and facial wear and tear.

Everyone gets old.

It can happen to anyone yea but forward maxilla means more support, so less saggy shit/NL folds.
 

asiancel

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this is what real maxillary retrusion looks like btw:


your argument against ante face are a couple of butt ugly roman busts, whose ideal of beauty including fat ass women. so take it with a grain of salt. some tom cruise and eric bana, who have convex faces, ie forward grown. they just have shit lower jaws(someone with photoshop can show you how they will look better with forward lower jaw, which will give them an ante face.
 

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tbh i prefer forward maxilla in women. protruding cheeks and forward maxilla makes me cum @"modified"

i hate my retruded maxilla
 

modified

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asiancel said:
this is what real maxillary retrusion looks like btw:


your argument against ante face are a couple of butt ugly roman busts, whose ideal of beauty including fat ass women. so take it with a grain of salt. some tom cruise and eric bana, who have convex faces, ie forward grown. they just have shit lower jaws(someone with photoshop can show you how they will look better with forward lower jaw, which will give them an ante face.

That appears to be a severe isolated case of maxillary hypoplasia with normal mandibular growth. I am not suggesting that should be considered ideal either. I am again suggesting the cephalometric average should be considered ideal.

The degree of forward growth is assessed on soft tissue analysis by drawing a line from the top of the ear canal to the upper limit of the infraorbital bone and setting that as your horizon. If you then draw a line perpendicularly downward from the nasion, and then superimpose multiple faces this way, you can compare their alignment of their jaws.

You will find guys like Tom Cruise or James Dean come from a different planet than guys like Jordan Barrett if you do this.



James Dean again more follows the Greco-Roman ideal:

 
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