1111

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Thanks for the explanation and examples. I have seen these pics before and noticed the area getting fuller but just imagined it was coming from the advancement of underlying bones pushing the soft tissues forward. In your experience, does the soft tissue sagging mean that the soft tissues just bulge out or actually drop downwards? If the latter it sounds like this could have an ageing effect on the face.
It seems like it was a bit of both, and yes it does have an aging effect. If you are consulting for jaw surgery, I would ask them if they use the V-Y closure technique.
 

SurgerySoon

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Do you have more side profile pictures? I am not convinced that double jaw would maintain your harmony and significantly improve your looks, but it may be possible.

I had jaw surgery several years ago for a pretty severe malocclusion, I had a good result, but I did have significant sagging in my cheeks afterwards, due to a combination of poor midface bone structure and the cheek tissue being severed from the bone during surgery. I have also noticed this effect on other jaw surgery before and afters. Several years later I had custom cheek implants (similar to yours but covered a larger area) with a midface lift which, combined with reducing body fat significantly, reduced the sagging. You can PM me if you want to know more about my designs or the surgeries.

As for my nose, it had a "hook" shape previously, the Lefort pushed the base forward a bit to give a straighter appearance. I am curious to see your profile to see what your nose looks like now.

I'm also surprised you weren't using moisturizer, dehydrated skin makes you look significantly older and damages your skin in the long run.

Lastly, I do really think that lowering your body fat will help your cheek implants really stand out and make you look younger. It would also reduce the appearance of any sagging that you may have. At the very least, it will allow you to visualize your facial structure better before deciding on what surgeries you will pursue. I know when I was trying to decide on cheek implants, I was thinking of getting significantly more augmentation before I lost around 10 lbs of fat, after which I ended up deciding on a smaller design, which I'm now glad I did.
Sorry for the delay in responding to your post -- I took a few side profile photos back in November that I'll link you to, since I'm assuming my side profile hasn't changed much/any since then. The person I took the photos for was trying to assess how much I'd benefit from double jaw surgery, so they told me to try and hold my head in a "normal" posture in the first photo (from the top), but to try and tuck in my jaw as much as possible in the last three photos.


Surgerymax said that I would ideally get about 10 mm of additional forward growth from LF1 and that paranasal/premaxillry implants should be able to create the illusion of having about 5 mm of additional forward growth, so I think I'll email Dr. Y within the next day or so and ask him if the thinks I'd be a candidate for paranasal/premaxillary implants to simulate having a more forward-grown appearance. If you've been following my thread, you probably know that I'm planning on going back in March to get the rest of my wraparound jaw implant put in. In addition to adding more width and sharpness (in sort of that "flare-out" way), the implant will also lower my jaw angles by 5 mm and 7 mm per side.

I'm hoping that the combination of additional width and lower gonial height will stretch out my midface tissues enough to allow them to collapse inward to get more of that hollowed-out look. There's a chance that the visual effects to the midface from getting the rest of the jaw implant put in will do enough to make the midface implants look more noticeable that I won't need to get them revised to add more projection, but I'm not sure. FWIW, SurgeryMax said that getting the rest of the jaw implant put in will make my current midface implants look more noticeable.

You can see an example of what I'm talking about with this guy, who got a wraparound jaw implant placed by Dr. Binder and didn't do anything to his cheeks, although it almost looks like he must've at least had fillers or something injected:


On the topic of whether or not to get double jaw surgery, I guess it really depends on how much the combination of getting the rest of my jaw implant put in along with premaxillary/paranasal implants can mimic the results of what I'd get from DJ surgery. If I can get 70% (or even 60%) of the results I'd get from DJ surgery with the implants, then I'll probably just go the implant route and forget about getting DJ surgery. I want to believe that the implants will get me "close enough," because it's such a more convenient/cheaper route to take, especially since my wraparound jaw implant has already been designed and manufactured for me.

Thanks for mentioning the issue with potential tissue sagging after DJ surgery. It's obviously a significant concern to take into consideration when it comes to getting DJ surgery, if the risk of it occurring really is that high. @Surgerymax, what's your take on the risk of midface tissue sagging following double jaw surgery?

Also, I know that you and others have mentioned that my implants would look more noticeable if I could lower my BF%, but I have always had an issue with holding lots of fat in my face. Even when I was running an Anavar + DHB (like Equipoise) cycle back during the summer, I was at my leanest point ever (ab veins, tissue-thin skin, etc.), but my face was still somewhat chubby-looking. It will probably take buccal/perioral/subcutaneous fat removal for my face to look significantly leaner, but I'm afraid of making myself look even older by removing fat.

BTW, I looked at that photo of Henry Cavill you posted. You're right, his cheekbones don't seem to project as far as mine. I guess I'll just ask Dr. Y if the thinks an additional 2 mm or so will make me look unnatural/overdone.
 

1111

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Sorry for the delay in responding to your post -- I took a few side profile photos back in November that I'll link you to, since I'm assuming my side profile hasn't changed much/any since then. The person I took the photos for was trying to assess how much I'd benefit from double jaw surgery, so they told me to try and hold my head in a "normal" posture in the first photo (from the top), but to try and tuck in my jaw as much as possible in the last three photos.


Surgerymax said that I would ideally get about 10 mm of additional forward growth from LF1 and that paranasal/premaxillry implants should be able to create the illusion of having about 5 mm of additional forward growth, so I think I'll email Dr. Y within the next day or so and ask him if the thinks I'd be a candidate for paranasal/premaxillary implants to simulate having a more forward-grown appearance. If you've been following my thread, you probably know that I'm planning on going back in March to get the rest of my wraparound jaw implant put in. In addition to adding more width and sharpness (in sort of that "flare-out" way), the implant will also lower my jaw angles by 5 mm and 7 mm per side.

I'm hoping that the combination of additional width and lower gonial height will stretch out my midface tissues enough to allow them to collapse inward to get more of that hollowed-out look. There's a chance that the visual effects to the midface from getting the rest of the jaw implant put in will do enough to make the midface implants look more noticeable that I won't need to get them revised to add more projection, but I'm not sure. FWIW, SurgeryMax said that getting the rest of the jaw implant put in will make my current midface implants look more noticeable.

You can see an example of what I'm talking about with this guy, who got a wraparound jaw implant placed by Dr. Binder and didn't do anything to his cheeks, although it almost looks like he must've at least had fillers or something injected:


On the topic of whether or not to get double jaw surgery, I guess it really depends on how much the combination of getting the rest of my jaw implant put in along with premaxillary/paranasal implants can mimic the results of what I'd get from DJ surgery. If I can get 70% (or even 60%) of the results I'd get from DJ surgery with the implants, then I'll probably just go the implant route and forget about getting DJ surgery. I want to believe that the implants will get me "close enough," because it's such a more convenient/cheaper route to take, especially since my wraparound jaw implant has already been designed and manufactured for me.

Thanks for mentioning the issue with potential tissue sagging after DJ surgery. It's obviously a significant concern to take into consideration when it comes to getting DJ surgery, if the risk of it occurring really is that high. @Surgerymax, what's your take on the risk of midface tissue sagging following double jaw surgery?

Also, I know that you and others have mentioned that my implants would look more noticeable if I could lower my BF%, but I have always had an issue with holding lots of fat in my face. Even when I was running an Anavar + DHB (like Equipoise) cycle back during the summer, I was at my leanest point ever (ab veins, tissue-thin skin, etc.), but my face was still somewhat chubby-looking. It will probably take buccal/perioral/subcutaneous fat removal for my face to look significantly leaner, but I'm afraid of making myself look even older by removing fat.

BTW, I looked at that photo of Henry Cavill you posted. You're right, his cheekbones don't seem to project as far as mine. I guess I'll just ask Dr. Y if the thinks an additional 2 mm or so will make me look unnatural/overdone.
I don't think paranasal implants would do you any good at all, they're mainly for people whose nasal base area is concave or collapsed inwards, which you definitely do not have. I think you are looking for more forward growth of the entire lower half of your face.


For your midface goals, I do think that you should still try to lower your body fat a bit. You said that you tend to hold fat in your face, but I can tell by your neck and arms that you still have a ways to go before you are under ~12%. I think that will create a noticeable difference (I also tend to hold fat in my face that doesn't go away until I'm under 10-12%). If you find afterwards that you still have chubby cheeks, you could go for some buccal fat removal or perioral lipo. I don't think it will age you as long as it's done conservatively, but try to reduce it naturally first. If you look at male models that have the hollow cheek look you want, you'll notice that the feature they all have is exceptional facial leanness, whether it be genetically or by dieting (probably mainly genetically). Your cheekbones are actually on the large side in my opinion, but I am curious what Dr. Yaremchuk will tell you.

The jaw implant is probably fine, I don't know if it will add to much to your looks but it probably won't hurt unless you go too big. You could probably get a good result from some mild masseter hypertrophy instead, since it looks like your insertions are good.

As for double jaw surgery, I am still not convinced that it would benefit you. Your maxilla seems normal, and not recessed (I guess that depends on your definition of normal). Remember jaw surgery is not some magic cure that makes everyone look better, a lot of people do look worse afterwards. If you do get jaw surgery, the advancement would probably be small. 10 mm seems way too big, I had a pretty severe bite issue and my movement was only 6 mm. You also have to consider the risks and trade offs, you may have some contour irregularities on your lower jaw, sagging midface tissues, and other complications. I would get some opinions from some surgeons and see what they have to say, but my opinion would be to not get it.

Overall, I do think you look really good. The main problem is, and always has been, your eye area. If you get that fixed it will be a massive improvement.
 

SurgerySoon

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I don't think paranasal implants would do you any good at all, they're mainly for people whose nasal base area is concave or collapsed inwards, which you definitely do not have. I think you are looking for more forward growth of the entire lower half of your face.


For your midface goals, I do think that you should still try to lower your body fat a bit. You said that you tend to hold fat in your face, but I can tell by your neck and arms that you still have a ways to go before you are under ~12%. I think that will create a noticeable difference (I also tend to hold fat in my face that doesn't go away until I'm under 10-12%). If you find afterwards that you still have chubby cheeks, you could go for some buccal fat removal or perioral lipo. I don't think it will age you as long as it's done conservatively, but try to reduce it naturally first. If you look at male models that have the hollow cheek look you want, you'll notice that the feature they all have is exceptional facial leanness, whether it be genetically or by dieting (probably mainly genetically). Your cheekbones are actually on the large side in my opinion, but I am curious what Dr. Yaremchuk will tell you.

The jaw implant is probably fine, I don't know if it will add to much to your looks but it probably won't hurt unless you go too big. You could probably get a good result from some mild masseter hypertrophy instead, since it looks like your insertions are good.

As for double jaw surgery, I am still not convinced that it would benefit you. Your maxilla seems normal, and not recessed (I guess that depends on your definition of normal). Remember jaw surgery is not some magic cure that makes everyone look better, a lot of people do look worse afterwards. If you do get jaw surgery, the advancement would probably be small. 10 mm seems way too big, I had a pretty severe bite issue and my movement was only 6 mm. You also have to consider the risks and trade offs, you may have some contour irregularities on your lower jaw, sagging midface tissues, and other complications. I would get some opinions from some surgeons and see what they have to say, but my opinion would be to not get it.

Overall, I do think you look really good. The main problem is, and always has been, your eye area. If you get that fixed it will be a massive improvement.
I appreciate the compliment, but I guess what I'm confused about is the fact that some people tell me I would benefit from paranasal implants to at least partially simulate the effects of what it would look like to bring my maxilla forward some via LF1, while other people tell me that paranasal implants are only for people who have actual severe paranasal hollowing. From what Surgerymax and others have told me, the fact that I have nasolabial folds (even if they're not particularly severe) is an indication that my maxilla is at least somewhat recessed, and that either LF1 or paranasal implants would help to get rid of those folds by pushing the tissue forward in that region of the maxilla.

In other words, I guess this is my question: does someone need to have full-fledged paranasal hollowing to qualify as a candidate for paranasal implants, or are people who just want to mimic the appearance of a more forward-grown maxilla (and who might have mild NL folds) also candidates for paranasal implants, even if they don't have actual paranasal hollowing?

On a related note, I'm not sure if you've seen this section of his website yet, but Dr. Y actually promotes paranasal implants as a way to partially mimic what the results of LF1 might look like. Here's the link:


So in other words, even though paranasal implants were originally designed to specifically correct paranasal hollowing (as you pointed out), it seems like some surgeons are using them to try and mimic the results of LF1 in regards to creating a more forward-grown "look."

@Surgerymax, can you provide some clarification on this? Even though I don't have actual paranasal hollowing, would I still benefit from paranasal implants?

BTW, just so you know, my rationalization for considering paranasal implants or DJ surgery in the first place is to get more of the "anteface" look, which a number of people have told me would confer a substantial aesthetic improvement to my looks, even if just based on the fact that anteface is a more attractive trait than retroface.

I agree that the risks of DJ surgery (which you outlined) might not be worth the benefits, which is why I was considering the paranasal implants instead.

Also, just for additional clarification -- I've been referring to paranasal implants, but to be more accurate and specific, what was actually recommended to me was a combination of paranasal and premaxillary implants (the goal of the premaxillary implant would be to push the upper lip forwards and up -- again, with the goal of imitating what LF1 would do for me in that area).
 

MudslimeMo

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To answer your question, escortcelling is, in fact, illegal in the US. However, there is a stark difference between soliciting the services of nasty street prostitutes and paying for time with upscale escorts (e.g., those who advertise on sites like Eros). The upscale escorts usually offer their services as time spent providing strictly non-sexual companionship, although both the client and the escort basically have a mutual, unspoken understanding that sex IS involved. My understanding is that it is very uncommon for people to be caught and/or arrested for paying for the services of upscale escorts.

Sugardaddying and/or betabuxxing just isn't going to happen. Not only do I not want to spend that much of my money, but I'm also not interested in having actual day-to-day companionship like you'd get with a GF in an LTR. I much prefer the concept of being able to have the time and freedom to do what I want on a day-to-day basis and just meet up with girls maybe once or twice a week strictly for sex (even if it's just from meeting them at bars, nightclubs, etc.).

Sorry for the late response.

I only suggested betabuxing because of the inherent risks involved in escortcelling. You don't want to lose all hope of ever finding a job because of being a registered sex offender. If there is even a 1-5% chance of that happening, I wouldn't take my chances if I'm qualified enough to be earning an upper middle class income. I'd rather knowingly get cucked into betabuxing - but not marriage - than take that risk, even though I despise betabuxing with every cell of my living body. If you're on course to be making 80K per year, or even half of that, you should eliminate ALL possibilities of jeopardizing that, especially as an incel who has nothing other than a career and money to live for. I can pay for sex - even in my conservative country - but getting caught would instantly cost me my job. It still wouldn't be as bad as getting married, but you get my point. Here's another idea: you can provide free rent in exchange for sex, and it would be legal if negotiated face to face and only once so as not to be recorded. It shouldn't be too hard to find a broke 20 y/o college foid. The trick is to indirectly make the offer one time only and never talk about it again. All of this may sound off topic, but it isn't in the grand scheme of things. Remember, your surgeries might not be enough to get you to ascend, in which case you will have to be creative in your endeavors to get young women. There is one very good thing about paying/providing value in exchange for sex : the age limit is high. Very high. You can still get sex the way I suggested in your 40s and 50s if you're well off enough and rent remains expensive. Think of this as an alternative to traditional betabuxing ( husband/beta boyfriend ) and to escortcelling. I'll leave this for you to ponder. I don't want to steer too much off the immediate topic at hand ( your surgeries, women and the agepill ).
 
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MudslimeMo

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I have noticed that you can grow quite a bit of chest hair. Can you also grow a full beard? If so, then you have two traits that are said to be harbingers of Male Pattern Baldness. Men who have a dense beard and/or dense chest hair usually end up maxing out the Norwood scale. I just thought I should point that out.
 

MudslimeMo

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BTW, just so you know, my rationalization for considering paranasal implants or DJ surgery in the first place is to get more of the "anteface" look, which a number of people have told me would confer a substantial aesthetic improvement to my looks, even if just based on the fact that anteface is a more attractive trait than retroface.
@SurgerySoon A forward grown and compact midface is the most common trait among both Stacy's and Chad's from what I can tell. It's what sets the haves from the have nots, alongside a top tier eyearea. Most slayers have one or the other, sometimes even both. If you can bring your maxilla forward or mimic the antefac appearance, you should look significantly better. The question is, would implants really be enough? Or do you need surgery?
 

Surgerymax

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I appreciate the compliment, but I guess what I'm confused about is the fact that some people tell me I would benefit from paranasal implants to at least partially simulate the effects of what it would look like to bring my maxilla forward some via LF1, while other people tell me that paranasal implants are only for people who have actual severe paranasal hollowing. From what Surgerymax and others have told me, the fact that I have nasolabial folds (even if they're not particularly severe) is an indication that my maxilla is at least somewhat recessed, and that either LF1 or paranasal implants would help to get rid of those folds by pushing the tissue forward in that region of the maxilla.

In other words, 1. I guess this is my question: does someone need to have full-fledged paranasal hollowing to qualify as a candidate for paranasal implants, or are people who just want to mimic the appearance of a more forward-grown maxilla (and who might have mild NL folds) also candidates for paranasal implants, even if they don't have actual paranasal hollowing?

On a related note, I'm not sure if you've seen this section of his website yet, but 2. Dr. Y actually promotes paranasal implants as a way to partially mimic what the results of LF1 might look like. Here's the link:


So in other words, even though paranasal implants were originally designed to specifically correct paranasal hollowing (as you pointed out), it seems like some surgeons are using them to try and mimic the results of LF1 in regards to creating a more forward-grown "look."

@Surgerymax, can you provide some clarification on this? Even though I don't have actual paranasal hollowing, 3 would I still benefit from paranasal implants?

4. BTW, just so you know, my rationalization for considering paranasal implants or DJ surgery in the first place is to get more of the "anteface" look, which a number of people have told me would confer a substantial aesthetic improvement to my looks, even if just based on the fact that anteface is a more attractive trait than retroface.

I agree that the risks of DJ surgery (which you outlined) might not be worth the benefits, which is why I was considering the paranasal implants instead.

5. Also, just for additional clarification -- I've been referring to paranasal implants, but to be more accurate and specific, what was actually recommended to me was a combination of paranasal and premaxillary implants (the goal of the premaxillary implant would be to push the upper lip forwards and up -- again, with the goal of imitating what LF1 would do for me in that area).
1. You answered your own question:
"the fact that I have nasolabial folds (even if they're not particularly severe) is an indication that my maxilla is at least somewhat recessed, and that either LF1 or paranasal implants would help to get rid of those folds by pushing the tissue forward in that region of the maxilla."
While they may be mild now because you are below average BF% they would be greatly maginified at an average american bodyfat.

2. Yes he does do that with good results as outlined in his book Atlas of Facial Implants (The second edition was just released and you bet it is on its way to me right now.) He states it mimics Le Fort I with "the obvious exception that implants don't move the lip position" (and never can)

3. yes

4. I have looked at the pictures in your previous post and I think you may be able to achieve your goals with implant-only approach. I am a believer in the anteface theory and this wll take you more towards that but again without moving the teeth (and lips) you will not have a true anteface.

5. There is little difference but a premaxillary implant is generally considered to be a slightly extended version of a paransal implant. No matter what design is used they will not move the lips forward and probably minimal effect on the lips in any direction.
 

SurgerySoon

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@SurgerySoon A forward grown and compact midface is the most common trait among both Stacy's and Chad's from what I can tell. It's what sets the haves from the have nots, alongside a top tier eyearea. Most slayers have one or the other, sometimes even both. If you can bring your maxilla forward or mimic the antefac appearance, you should look significantly better. The question is, would implants really be enough? Or do you need surgery?
@MudslimeMo I'll respond to all three of your posts in this post. To answer your question about whether or not paranasal/premaxillary implants would be enough to mimic having an anteface appearance -- according to what SurgeryMax said in the post he submitted just after yours, implants won't be enough to mimic all of the elements of true anteface (e.g, the trademark protruding, pouty lips that most MMs have), but he thinks it should get me reasonably close. Either way, the paranasal/premaxillary implants in tandem with the rest of my wraparound jaw implant should give me a substantial improvement, even if it's not on the level of one I'd achieve through double jaw surgery. To be honest, at this point and at my age, I'd be happy with 60-70% of the improvement I'd get from double jaw surgery.

To respond to the point you made about betabuxxing and/or trying to find a girl who would be willing to trade sex for a place to stay -- I really just don't ever want to get involved with a girl even to *that* extent. Also, you said that you wouldn't advise me to risk escortcelling if I will be making at least $80k once I'm done with school. I will actually be making significantly more than that (probably $100k - $120k to start, with the potential to probably earn up to $150k/year if I stay on the same career trajectory). I agree that it's a lot to risk, but the high-class escorts have clever ways of camouflaging their businesses as legitimate ventures. For example, their online listings state that clients are only paying for general companionship or a massage and that sex will NOT happen, but when they guy meets up with the girl, of course they have sex. So that's basically how they maneuver around getting busted by law enforcement, as compared to the standard street prostitute whose business model DOES involve making a blatant proposition sex.

To respond to your question on whether I can grow a full beard -- I've actually never tried since I haven't ever cared for the beard look, although I do grow lots of chest hair (obviously). I researched what you said regarding the correlation between beard and chest hair growth capability and Norwooding risk, and from what I read, whether or not a male will lose his scalp hair still depends on whether his scalp hair follicles are genetically susceptible to being damaged by DHT. The fact that a male grows excessive chest and beard hair DOES indicate that he has high DHT levels, but it doesn't necessarily indicate that he will definitely lose his scalp hair. Regardless, I'm armed with two topical products (finasteride and an experimental drug called RU58841) that I will start using when/if my hair does start falling out. The good thing about topical finasteride is that only a small fraction of the amount applied travels systemically through the bloodstream, so sexual side effects are supposedly much less likely to occur.

Something you said in your post caught my attention, which is the point you made that my surgeries might not be enough to get me to ascend. I'm afraid that there's a high likelihood of this outcome occurring as well. Just out of curiosity, why do you think my surgeries might not be enough to make me ascend? Because I have too weak of a physical starting base (e.g., maxilla too recessed, eye area too subhuman, ratios/proportions not ideal, etc.), or because I most likely don't have the capacity at my age to make the extreme changes to my personality that I'd have to make to actually interact verbally with girls?
 

SurgerySoon

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1. You answered your own question:
"the fact that I have nasolabial folds (even if they're not particularly severe) is an indication that my maxilla is at least somewhat recessed, and that either LF1 or paranasal implants would help to get rid of those folds by pushing the tissue forward in that region of the maxilla."
While they may be mild now because you are below average BF% they would be greatly maginified at an average american bodyfat.

2. Yes he does do that with good results as outlined in his book Atlas of Facial Implants (The second edition was just released and you bet it is on its way to me right now.) He states it mimics Le Fort I with "the obvious exception that implants don't move the lip position" (and never can)

3. yes

4. I have looked at the pictures in your previous post and I think you may be able to achieve your goals with implant-only approach. I am a believer in the anteface theory and this wll take you more towards that but again without moving the teeth (and lips) you will not have a true anteface.

5. There is little difference but a premaxillary implant is generally considered to be a slightly extended version of a paransal implant. No matter what design is used they will not move the lips forward and probably minimal effect on the lips in any direction.
Thanks for the information and clarification. So basically, the decision to get implant surgery vs. DJ surgery comes down to whether or not I want to have an authentic, true-to-life anteface, or if I'd be happy with getting maybe 60-70% of that "look." For the time being, I think I would rather go the implant route and see if I end up being satisfied with the degree of additional forward growth (or the imitation of it, at least) I get from that. If I'm not satisfied, then in the future when I have more time and money I'll look into getting double jaw surgery.

Last question... is there any chance that my paranasal implants could make my midface implants look less prominent (by ruining the ogee curve or by other means)?
 

MudslimeMo

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To respond to the point you made about betabuxxing and/or trying to find a girl who would be willing to trade sex for a place to stay -- I really just don't ever want to get involved with a girl even to *that* extent. Also, you said that you wouldn't advise me to risk escortcelling if I will be making at least $80k once I'm done with school. I will actually be making significantly more than that (probably $100k - $120k to start, with the potential to probably earn up to $150k/year if I stay on the same career trajectory). I agree that it's a lot to risk, but the high-class escorts have clever ways of camouflaging their businesses as legitimate ventures. For example, their online listings state that clients are only paying for general companionship or a massage and that sex will NOT happen, but when they guy meets up with the girl, of course they have sex. So that's basically how they maneuver around getting busted by law enforcement, as compared to the standard street prostitute whose business model DOES involve making a blatant proposition sex.

To respond to your question on whether I can grow a full beard -- I've actually never tried since I haven't ever cared for the beard look, although I do grow lots of chest hair (obviously). I researched what you said regarding the correlation between beard and chest hair growth capability and Norwooding risk, and from what I read, whether or not a male will lose his scalp hair still depends on whether his scalp hair follicles are genetically susceptible to being damaged by DHT. The fact that a male grows excessive chest and beard hair DOES indicate that he has high DHT levels, but it doesn't necessarily indicate that he will definitely lose his scalp hair. Regardless, I'm armed with two topical products (finasteride and an experimental drug called RU58841) that I will start using when/if my hair does start falling out. The good thing about topical finasteride is that only a small fraction of the amount applied travels systemically through the bloodstream, so sexual side effects are supposedly much less likely to occur.

Something you said in your post caught my attention, which is the point you made that my surgeries might not be enough to get me to ascend. I'm afraid that there's a high likelihood of this outcome occurring as well. Just out of curiosity, why do you think my surgeries might not be enough to make me ascend? Because I have too weak of a physical starting base (e.g., maxilla too recessed, eye area too subhuman, ratios/proportions not ideal, etc.), or because I most likely don't have the capacity at my age to make the extreme changes to my personality that I'd have to make to actually interact verbally with girls?

Even if escorts can circumvent the law, there will always be the possibility that you're about to be caught in a sting operation, whether you're dealing with street hookers or high-end escorts. All that is needed is for you to have an undercover cop disguised as an escort at your place, and for her to offer sex with you verbally agreeing. Imagine the catastrophe that would ensue, the domino effect it would have on your life. Everything you've done up until that point will have been for nothing. All of your accomplishments, dreams and aspirations will suddenly be shattered right before your eyes, with there being no second chance for "redemption". Do you think college professors who get busted trying to fuck a student in exchange for an A+ can find a similarly high status, well paying job? Or are they destined for mediocrity for the rest of their lives? Instead of putting their entire lives on the line, these otherwise high IQ professors could've played it safe and bought sex legally abroad, or semi-legally by having a broke foid live rent free in a place he either owns or can easily pay for, given that no definite or unambiguous solicitation for sex is involved. Sex for rent is actually popular and relatively common among landlords in countries like the UK, and the law is powerless to stop it because it isn't prostitution in the legal sense+the initial interaction - this is critically important - isn't recorded. With escorts, there is always the possibility that something can go horribly wrong, or even for the escort to refuse having sex with you and to still be paid in full, because you can't file a complaint against her for lack of service. If you're going to be making a truck load of money in your career, you have way too much to lose for you to simply leave the entire matter to chance. I'm not trying to convince you to reconsider your stance on inauthentic ways of acquiring sex ( betabuxing and sex for rent ), just trying to draw your attention to just how big of a risk escorcelling is, especially for you. I'd rather stay a virgin for the rest of my life than get caught in a sting operation and miss out on a big, fat paycheck for life. I'd rather sex cost me double what an escort would charge if the way I'm going about getting it is legal. You said it's very rare to get caught when dealing with escorts. I ask you: how rare? Is it a 1 in 100 chance? Not risking it. 1 in 1000? I'd probably give in, but would still much rather explore other options. It all depends on your risk tolerance and how much you stand to lose which, in your particular case as an oldcel incel with only a career to live for, is everything.



On the issue of norwooding, what I said in my previous post about chest hair and beard growth being precursors of future MPB was something I'd heard about on a youtube channel, and is something I've observed on the overwhelming majority of norwooding men. You have a pretty good chance of going bald if you have certain traits, one of them is dense chest hair. I just wanted to mention that. Add to that being Caucasian and white, and you have pretty high odds of getting at or past NW3. If you plan to use oral fin in case topical doesn't work, then I wish you luck, because you're going to need it. It's been 2 years since my last fin/dut capsule. I still haven't had an orgasm since. My attention span would be absolute dogsh*t today had I continued using it. It could be that I have an exceptionally poor genetic response to drugs, but I'd assume the worst if I were you and thinking of ingesting that poison.



I think that you will still find it difficult to ascend because of the personality and demeanor changes required to do so, even if you get fantastic results with your surgeries. You can't go from being timid, inhibited and introverted to suddenly being bold, uninhibited and outgoing with a flip of a switch. You will surely need to be trained to do that by a dating coach. You need to have the presence of mind during an interaction to not be outed as a desperate, inexperienced older guy trying to shag some foid. Looking like Chad doesn't mean you've lived His - with a capital H - life and been through His experiences, as the very late bloomer that you are. You need to both look like Chad and be Chad. You might be able to buy your way to a Chad-like face, but whether you are skilled enough socially to act like Him is a different matter entirely. Women do make it much easier for Chad to interact with them and be sexual, so at least you don't have to do absolutely everything to entice them to sleep with you. This brings me to another issue, will you know how to capitalize on IOIs, or even recognize them? If you're socially impaired enough, you may very well miss out on blatant IOIs, or simply not have the balls to respond. I know I wouldn't dare look into a female's eyes with intent out of fear of any possible repercussions. Will you be confident enough to approach, let alone escalate? This is a lot to take in, and would require a separate thread to talk about in detail, with actual input from slayers - or even normie nonvirgins - who have enough experience with women.
 

SurgerySoon

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Even if escorts can circumvent the law, there will always be the possibility that you're about to be caught in a sting operation, whether you're dealing with street hookers or high-end escorts. All that is needed is for you to have an undercover cop disguised as an escort at your place, and for her to offer sex with you verbally agreeing. Imagine the catastrophe that would ensue, the domino effect it would have on your life. Everything you've done up until that point will have been for nothing. All of your accomplishments, dreams and aspirations will suddenly be shattered right before your eyes, with there being no second chance for "redemption". Do you think college professors who get busted trying to fuck a student in exchange for an A+ can find a similarly high status, well paying job? Or are they destined for mediocrity for the rest of their lives? Instead of putting their entire lives on the line, these otherwise high IQ professors could've played it safe and bought sex legally abroad, or semi-legally by having a broke foid live rent free in a place he either owns or can easily pay for, given that no definite or unambiguous solicitation for sex is involved. Sex for rent is actually popular and relatively common among landlords in countries like the UK, and the law is powerless to stop it because it isn't prostitution in the legal sense+the initial interaction - this is critically important - isn't recorded. With escorts, there is always the possibility that something can go horribly wrong, or even for the escort to refuse having sex with you and to still be paid in full, because you can't file a complaint against her for lack of service. If you're going to be making a truck load of money in your career, you have way too much to lose for you to simply leave the entire matter to chance. I'm not trying to convince you to reconsider your stance on inauthentic ways of acquiring sex ( betabuxing and sex for rent ), just trying to draw your attention to just how big of a risk escorcelling is, especially for you. I'd rather stay a virgin for the rest of my life than get caught in a sting operation and miss out on a big, fat paycheck for life. I'd rather sex cost me double what an escort would charge if the way I'm going about getting it is legal. You said it's very rare to get caught when dealing with escorts. I ask you: how rare? Is it a 1 in 100 chance? Not risking it. 1 in 1000? I'd probably give in, but would still much rather explore other options. It all depends on your risk tolerance and how much you stand to lose which, in your particular case as an oldcel incel with only a career to live for, is everything.



On the issue of norwooding, what I said in my previous post about chest hair and beard growth being precursors of future MPB was something I'd heard about on a youtube channel, and is something I've observed on the overwhelming majority of norwooding men. You have a pretty good chance of going bald if you have certain traits, one of them is dense chest hair. I just wanted to mention that. Add to that being Caucasian and white, and you have pretty high odds of getting at or past NW3. If you plan to use oral fin in case topical doesn't work, then I wish you luck, because you're going to need it. It's been 2 years since my last fin/dut capsule. I still haven't had an orgasm since. My attention span would be absolute dogsh*t today had I continued using it. It could be that I have an exceptionally poor genetic response to drugs, but I'd assume the worst if I were you and thinking of ingesting that poison.



I think that you will still find it difficult to ascend because of the personality and demeanor changes required to do so, even if you get fantastic results with your surgeries. You can't go from being timid, inhibited and introverted to suddenly being bold, uninhibited and outgoing with a flip of a switch. You will surely need to be trained to do that by a dating coach. You need to have the presence of mind during an interaction to not be outed as a desperate, inexperienced older guy trying to shag some foid. Looking like Chad doesn't mean you've lived His - with a capital H - life and been through His experiences, as the very late bloomer that you are. You need to both look like Chad and be Chad. You might be able to buy your way to a Chad-like face, but whether you are skilled enough socially to act like Him is a different matter entirely. Women do make it much easier for Chad to interact with them and be sexual, so at least you don't have to do absolutely everything to entice them to sleep with you. This brings me to another issue, will you know how to capitalize on IOIs, or even recognize them? If you're socially impaired enough, you may very well miss out on blatant IOIs, or simply not have the balls to respond. I know I wouldn't dare look into a female's eyes with intent out of fear of any possible repercussions. Will you be confident enough to approach, let alone escalate? This is a lot to take in, and would require a separate thread to talk about in detail, with actual input from slayers - or even normie nonvirgins - who have enough experience with women.
To answer your question regarding the chances of getting caught escorting by law enforcement -- I'm actually not sure what the specific numbers are, as I don't think any studies or other analyses have been done on the subject. I agree that paying for escorts is a risky move for someone who will be earning a fairly high income, but all I'm saying is that I could very well end up not having any other choice since all forms of betabuxxing are going to be out of the question. It's just a risk I'm going to have to be willing to take.

I will say that it's considered to be just as common for high-earning businessmen in large cities (think NYC, Miami, etc.) to pay to see escorts as it is for them to visit expensive fine dining restaurants, so I honestly don't think the chances of getting caught are all that high.

Another option is to either move to or visit Las Vegas regularly, which is probably the closest thing the US has to a "hotbed" of escorting activity (it's even outright legal in a couple surrounding counties). And side from escorts, Las Vegas obviously has countless nightclubs and bars, which means that it would also basically be the perfect city to live in if I wanted to try legitimate slaying if I'm ever able to improve my personality/demeanor/conversation skills.

When it comes to hair loss, I'm pretty sure topical finasteride will be effective, but if it isn't, there's another drug called RU58841 that has been proven in clinical trials to be just as effective as finasteride. It's applied topically and works by blocking the binding sites in the scalp for DHT. In other words, it doesn't actually interfere at all with the production of DHT -- it just prevents it from attaching to hair follicles in the scalp. This means there are no systemic side effects like there are with finasteride. It was evaluated in 2 separate clinical trials and found to be extremely effective, but the patent on the drug expired shortly after the second clinical trial, which led to its manufacturer abandoning FDA approval efforts. In all honesty, I will probably try that drug before I try anything with finasteride in it, despite the risks inherent with using an "experimental" substance. I recommend that you do a bit of research on it to see for yourself just how effective it is.

I agree that personality, demeanor, and conversation skills will prove to be a huge burden when it comes to the practical "application" of my eventual new face during interactions with girls. You're right in that I'll probably have to hire a dating coach, or even one of those guys other males pay to go out with them to nightclubs/bars and steer them through the persuasive and general conversational aspects of getting a girl to hookup. Of course, this will also require moving to a much larger city than I live in now, which I was planning on doing anyways, but like I've mentioned before, it could be another 1-2 years before I'm in the position to be able to make such a move. That's why I've said before in some of my recent posts that a true ascension may never happen, simply because there are so many different elements -- financial, professional, location -- that will have to come together in tandem to be able to make this happen. The other issue (which I've also remarked on before) is that I might not be able to get all those elements in place until I'm simply too obviously old, which means all this time, money, and effort spent will have been for nothing.
 

1111

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Thanks for the information and clarification. So basically, the decision to get implant surgery vs. DJ surgery comes down to whether or not I want to have an authentic, true-to-life anteface, or if I'd be happy with getting maybe 60-70% of that "look." For the time being, I think I would rather go the implant route and see if I end up being satisfied with the degree of additional forward growth (or the imitation of it, at least) I get from that. If I'm not satisfied, then in the future when I have more time and money I'll look into getting double jaw surgery.

Last question... is there any chance that my paranasal implants could make my midface implants look less prominent (by ruining the ogee curve or by other means)?
I would be careful with the statement that you would get 60-70% of that "look". If you get paranasal/premaxillary implants, at the level of the lips and below you will get 0% of the DJ surgery forward movement, but in the area of the base of the nose you will get 100% of that movement. Whether or not that combination would be satisfactory for you or look unnatural I cannot say, but I doubt it's your ideal look.

Plus, looking at your CT scan your paranasal area looks quite good from the side. Adding a "bump" in the location wouldn't really do much for you.
c.JPG
d.JPG

Maybe a good thing to do would be to email Yaremchuk and ask him his opinion. You could try another surgeon also like Eppley for a second opinion.

I would also say that nasiolabal folds are not always the result of a recessed maxilla, my folds got worse after jaw surgery and are still not completely gone after my cheek implants and midfacelift.
 

SurgerySoon

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I would be careful with the statement that you would get 60-70% of that "look". If you get paranasal/premaxillary implants, at the level of the lips and below you will get 0% of the DJ surgery forward movement, but in the area of the base of the nose you will get 100% of that movement. Whether or not that combination would be satisfactory for you or look unnatural I cannot say, but I doubt it's your ideal look.

Plus, looking at your CT scan your paranasal area looks quite good from the side. Adding a "bump" in the location wouldn't really do much for you.
View attachment 6292
View attachment 6294

Maybe a good thing to do would be to email Yaremchuk and ask him his opinion. You could try another surgeon also like Eppley for a second opinion.

I would also say that nasiolabal folds are not always the result of a recessed maxilla, my folds got worse after jaw surgery and are still not completely gone after my cheek implants and midfacelift.
Hmm, I'll send an email to Dr. Y and maybe Eppley as well and see if they think I'd benefit from paranasal augmentation. @Surgerymax, what's your take on 1111's statement that just augmenting the paranasal/premaxillary area while leaving the mandible alone could look uncanny? Do you think it would offer at least some improvement in the sense of making my maxilla look more forward-grown, or is 1111 right and it would be a mistake to make the maxilla look more forward-grown without also augmenting the mandible?
 

1111

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Hmm, I'll send an email to Dr. Y and maybe Eppley as well and see if they think I'd benefit from paranasal augmentation. @Surgerymax, what's your take on 1111's statement that just augmenting the paranasal/premaxillary area while leaving the mandible alone could look uncanny? Do you think it would offer at least some improvement in the sense of making my maxilla look more forward-grown, or is 1111 right and it would be a mistake to make the maxilla look more forward-grown without also augmenting the mandible?
It's not so much about the maxilla/mandible mismatch, it's more about the mismatch between the upper part of the maxilla (nasal base area) and your upper teeth/lips. So basically between different parts of your maxilla.

You might also want to try morphing your side profile, or even try fillers to see what the implant might look like.
 

Surgerymax

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Hmm, I'll send an email to Dr. Y and maybe Eppley as well and see if they think I'd benefit from paranasal augmentation. @Surgerymax, what's your take on 1111's statement that just augmenting the paranasal/premaxillary area while leaving the mandible alone could look uncanny? Do you think it would offer at least some improvement in the sense of making my maxilla look more forward-grown, or is 1111 right and it would be a mistake to make the maxilla look more forward-grown without also augmenting the mandible?
The implant will not augment in the way the lines are drawn above. When I have time I will try to provide you with some predictive imaging. It would actually be easier for me to do that than try to explain in words alone.
 

Surgerymax

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It's not so much about the maxilla/mandible mismatch, it's more about the mismatch between the upper part of the maxilla (nasal base area) and your upper teeth/lips. So basically between different parts of your maxilla.

You might also want to try morphing your side profile, or even try fillers to see what the implant might look like.
You cannot use fillers for nasal base support that would be a disaster