SurgerySoon

Got Custom Implants
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I wasn't able to respond the past few days because of an inexplicably erratic sleep pattern.


You wouldn't have a sharp point that deep in a true NW1, even if it's only visible when you part your hair. I know this because your hairline resembles my brother's almost exactly. It looks like a NW1 because of how dense and long it is, but when he pulls it back, the recession is obvious. He even told me himself that his hairline has receded a lot and that it used to be straight across along the forehead. Your hairline is similar to Ashton Kutcher's in this video .
The guy is norwooding by his own admission. I'm not trying to unsettle you, and I really want to be mistaken about your hair for my own sake and peace of mind knowing that this is my future hairline, but it's always safer and wiser to assume the worst case scenario, especially if it's NOT far-fetched or overly pessimistic at all.



About the agepill, I do think that it can be artificially slowed down, even if you don't have the genetic predisposition to age well. What I've been trying to get at is that it's extremely difficult to look more than 3 years younger than you actually are, especially if you have fair skin. The last observation seems to hold true whether you're 100% white Caucasian, or have negroid admixture ( Arab, Berber ). I definitely see it in my country. The lighter the pigmentation, the worse the ageing process tends to get. Syrians and white Gulfies age the worst in the middle east, and blacks the best. However, even for the latter, you rarely see someone looking 35 at 40 or even 38. Facelifts are unheard of here, particularly among men, so I can't really say anything about their effectiveness. When I say effective, I mean shaving off a good 4 or 5 years off your face. If you don't look 31 or 32 at 35 or 36, what's the point really? You'd need to know how common it is to look that much younger ( there is a huge difference between 31 and 35 for the average guy. They're almost worlds apart ) to justify dumping several thousand $s into a facelift and/or an anti-ageing regimen. Not only will you sink further in debt - in your particular case - you will also get sick of sticking to the regimen and the need to avoid certain diet pitfalls in order to get and maintain potential results. It's only worth the hassle if you have a pretty good chance at looking your current age 4 years from now. However, since this is your last chance to salvage what's left of your youth, I'd say go for it, considering that you don't have much to lose. Of course, I'm assuming that you're confident you can pay all the money you owe back. How deep are you in debt if you don't mind me asking? And what about your earning potential once you're done with your studies? If it's too personal, I understand if you decline to answer.


It's going to be interesting to see where you end up with all of this. The eye area overhaul is going to define an era for the redpill and the internet manosphere if it's successful and gets enough exposure. If you end up with a looksmatched mid 20s gf who is moderately attracted to you, let alone ascend to serial fucktoy status, you will have succeeded, considering you come from a background of total or near total inceldom.
Regarding the hair -- what makes it more difficult to analyze is that I have always had a widows peak (even when I was a young kid) with that sharp point that you mentioned is visible when I part my hair. I'll take some newer photos within the next day or so and post them here.

On the topic of facelifts, I was just reading over your post, and it sounds like you might be under the impression that I'm just now thinking about undergoing a facelift. Just to clarify, I actually had a type of "partial" facelift done back when I had my midface/chin implant surgery done in March. The type of facelift is called a midface lift, which is about what it sounds like -- the surgeon just lifts the midface tissues as opposed to doing a full facelift. My surgeon's midface lift technique involves stitching the inside of the midface tissues to the implants themselves, which supposedly prevents the midface tissue descent that otherwise starts to occur during most peoples' 30s.

So in other words, I have actually already undergone one type of facelift that should hopefully buy me some time, at least in the sense of preventing soft tissue descent. Not only that, but my eye area overhaul surgeon said that he will basically perform the same type of midface lift when he does my eye area surgery, so at the very least, I should be somewhat insulated against experiencing midface tissue descent, at least for a few years (otherwise, what's the point of performing the procedure in the first place?).

Regarding the debt question you asked, I would rather not post the specific number publicly, but I'll say that it's probably on the above average end of what is considered "normal" for a graduate student in the US to leave school with. However, here in the US, there are repayment options that allow students to pay back their loans via various income-based plans, so I'm not that worried about it (or at least, I'm not worried enough about it to abandon my surgical pursuits).

Answering your question about earning potential once I'm done with school is a little more complicated, because there's a chance I might have to spend an additional 1-2 more years in school after I graduate in May from the program I'm currently enrolled in. This is because the field I made the mistake of choosing to get a degree in is in a state of severe job market saturation (I.e., way more applicants than jobs), so I might have no choice but to go back to school (again, for no more than a year or two) to train for a different career. If I'm able to get a job in my current profession after I graduate in May, my income potential will be decent (but nothing exceptional) -- anywhere from $90k - $120k to start, most likely. Even if I have to do another 1-2-year degree program, I'll still be coming out of school qualifying for jobs that offer a similar starting income.

The above scenario with me possibly having to undertake more school is why I said in a previous post that it might be another 1-2 years before I can financially afford to do my eye area overhaul surgery, which is why I've been entertaining the notion that it might simply be over for me. If I really am genetically predisposed to aging very poorly, then I might simply look too old to be physically attractive to girls by the time I have gotten my eye area overhaul surgery. In that case, the only reason to move forward with having the surgery will be to satisfy my own desire to look better. At that point, I'm not sure how I will cope with the dual realities of knowing that I wasted both my youth as an incel as well as my last few years of opportunity to make the changes that could've otherwise rescued me from that lifestyle, even if just on a temporary basis.

Of course, I guess the wildcard factor is to what extent the combined effects of the midface lift (to prevent soft tissue descent) and my use of collagen-boosting products (Retin-A, GHK-Cu, red light therapy, astaxanthin, etc.) influence the aging process for me, if at all. I'm not particularly optimistic here, but I'd like to think that they'll have SOME effect. Obviously, other posters on the forum think I'm wasting my time and money on them.
 

MudslimeMo

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Regarding the hair -- what makes it more difficult to analyze is that I have always had a widows peak (even when I was a young kid) with that sharp point that you mentioned is visible when I part my hair. I'll take some newer photos within the next day or so and post them here.

On the topic of facelifts, I was just reading over your post, and it sounds like you might be under the impression that I'm just now thinking about undergoing a facelift. Just to clarify, I actually had a type of "partial" facelift done back when I had my midface/chin implant surgery done in March. The type of facelift is called a midface lift, which is about what it sounds like -- the surgeon just lifts the midface tissues as opposed to doing a full facelift. My surgeon's midface lift technique involves stitching the inside of the midface tissues to the implants themselves, which supposedly prevents the midface tissue descent that otherwise starts to occur during most peoples' 30s.

So in other words, I have actually already undergone one type of facelift that should hopefully buy me some time, at least in the sense of preventing soft tissue descent. Not only that, but my eye area overhaul surgeon said that he will basically perform the same type of midface lift when he does my eye area surgery, so at the very least, I should be somewhat insulated against experiencing midface tissue descent, at least for a few years (otherwise, what's the point of performing the procedure in the first place?).

Regarding the debt question you asked, I would rather not post the specific number publicly, but I'll say that it's probably on the above average end of what is considered "normal" for a graduate student in the US to leave school with. However, here in the US, there are repayment options that allow students to pay back their loans via various income-based plans, so I'm not that worried about it (or at least, I'm not worried enough about it to abandon my surgical pursuits).

Answering your question about earning potential once I'm done with school is a little more complicated, because there's a chance I might have to spend an additional 1-2 more years in school after I graduate in May from the program I'm currently enrolled in. This is because the field I made the mistake of choosing to get a degree in is in a state of severe job market saturation (I.e., way more applicants than jobs), so I might have no choice but to go back to school (again, for no more than a year or two) to train for a different career. If I'm able to get a job in my current profession after I graduate in May, my income potential will be decent (but nothing exceptional) -- anywhere from $90k - $120k to start, most likely. Even if I have to do another 1-2-year degree program, I'll still be coming out of school qualifying for jobs that offer a similar starting income.

The above scenario with me possibly having to undertake more school is why I said in a previous post that it might be another 1-2 years before I can financially afford to do my eye area overhaul surgery, which is why I've been entertaining the notion that it might simply be over for me. If I really am genetically predisposed to aging very poorly, then I might simply look too old to be physically attractive to girls by the time I have gotten my eye area overhaul surgery. In that case, the only reason to move forward with having the surgery will be to satisfy my own desire to look better. At that point, I'm not sure how I will cope with the dual realities of knowing that I wasted both my youth as an incel as well as my last few years of opportunity to make the changes that could've otherwise rescued me from that lifestyle, even if just on a temporary basis.

Of course, I guess the wildcard factor is to what extent the combined effects of the midface lift (to prevent soft tissue descent) and my use of collagen-boosting products (Retin-A, GHK-Cu, red light therapy, astaxanthin, etc.) influence the aging process for me, if at all. I'm not particularly optimistic here, but I'd like to think that they'll have SOME effect. Obviously, other posters on the forum think I'm wasting my time and money on them.



I also had a widows peak when I was a kid. I'm still norwooding rapidly and irreversibly, even if NW2.5 is almost certainly the worst NW level I'll get to. I will not hit NW3 within the next decade, that I'm confident of. In any case, you need a several year old picture to compare the current ones to. The picture should clearly expose your hairline and not have hair too long that it covers your forehead.


I know that you've already done facelifts. I was just discussing them in general + trying to dissuade you from doing a full facelift, unless you have a reasonably good chance at looking 4 years younger at least in your mid 30s. I looked up the cost. You're looking at 8K or more. That's expensive for something that may or may not work, unlike chin or jaw augmentation surgery or the eye area overhaul. However, if you can get a result as amazing as this one..



..then even 15K wouldn't be too much to pay. I'd even pay 20K for a result that good if I were attractive enough genetically to benefit ( which I'm not ). The foid in the pic went from - apparently - early to mid 50s, to early 40s. From invisible to virtually ALL men, to 100% fuckable. She just got an additional 7 years of hooking up with 30 something men. I'll say it again: I would happily pay 20K to look 7-10 years younger. I'd choose looking 25 at 33 at PSL5.5, over being an age-adjusted PSL 6-6.5 35 year old and looking it.



You will be too old to get girls in their mid 20s once you look like a guy too deep in his 30s. I wouldn't use the word "might" if I were you. One-off flukes ( like a drunken hookup for instance ) don't count to me. I'm talking about consistently hooking up with or at least authentically dating these girls. That's why my mother has been pestering me to get an arranged marriage lately, and has also been telling me to lose weight. She knows that I will be rejected for age alone by young women if I don't get married within the next 24 months at most. If you want to fuck these girls, it's now or never, and no amount of surgeries in your mid 30s will change that unless you end up looking absolutely stunning from the eye area overhaul. Even then, your age will make keeping these girls as steady fwbs an uphill battle you most likely won't win. I take it that you're unwilling to swallow your pride and become a beta provider, which is a wise choice financially, but don't think for a second that you can actually become one easily for a young girl. Hence why my mother wants me to get married asap, as age still matters, even in a fake betabux scenario. You could stoop to very low levels and tolerate a polyamorous relationship with a foid in exchange for your resources. She gets to use you for money and fuck you, but also fuck a young Chad with your acquiescence. The only thing that would stop me personally from accepting this would be STDs, other than losing money. I don't have much self-esteem left.




The way I cope with missing out on youth is knowing that I will be the only one among my peers who will be financially independent in about a decade. I should be able to retire and go near-full time neet in my early 40s. As things stand, and at my current rate of expenditure and savings, it's going to be a reality.
 

MudslimeMo

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I believe she has lupus

Fair enough, but what about this:


















VS















She looks 28+ in all of the first 3 photos, even in the one with her lesbian gf where she isn't smiling or making any kind of facial expression. She looks a good 5 years younger in the other 3. The one with her using a cellphone appears to be a candid. I don't even need to google her early 20s pictures, as she already looks way past her expiry date to commitment-minded looksmatched or better males and a far cry from her mid 20s self.
 

Surgerymax

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Good luck with your surgeries, hope they all work out.

To answer your question, Yaremchuk said he doesn't like doing morphs because it's just "moving around pixels" and because he doesn't feel they always give an accurate before/after representation of what surgery can achieve.

I'm thinking the exact same thing as you, though -- if my face doesn't really have any stark aesthetic detractors other than a noticeably recessed midface (including orbital rims), how could it NOT look good to augment that area? Isn't it kind of like putting the most obviously missing puzzle piece in place on a puzzle board?

I'm hoping that by creating the illusion of having above-average midface forward growth with implants, it will make my overall look "click" more in the sense of general attractiveness. The midface lift should also help with lifting the lower eyelids so that they don't have the appearance that they're both drooping or even "melting" in a lateral/downwards direction.

Aside from eliminating my tear troughs and the negative vector in general, this is the sort of look I hope to achieve from the front malar portion of the midface implants:




Do you see how he has strong anterior projection of the cheekbones, whereas mine are basically flat (and with sagging midface tissue)?
[hr]



I agree that my submental area looks like total shit, but at the same time, how much more projection would my chin really benefit from? Even though it looks recessed in certain photos, in others it barely does at all. Also, do you really think that adding a small amount of additional projection would eliminate the double chin? I can literally grab the submental region and feel flab there. Also, double chins run in my family lineage.
Just wanted to say a couple of things about aging & hairline but while I am here -

@KEy21 The implants will not ever disintegrate. People have had Solid Silicone in their faces for 30, going on 40 years now with no problems and the quality of them is actually optimized now. Delayed implant complications are extremely rare. If you are going to have a complication it will probably happen soon post-op or atleast within the first year. I know of a few interesting examples I'd love to talk about but will spare everyone the wall of technical text.

Also OP I recommend you really consider against adding much more "front loaded" (chin) augmentation to your mandibular plane, it may look unnatural. The only true way to fix a recessed mandible is with BSSO, it can be improved with implants say 50% but when people try to fix a recessed mandible 100% with an implant they will never get there - just the "uncanny valley" you have talked about. (Implants do better at offering forward growth appearance in the midface and do excellent at offering the lateral growth look in the jaw angles). You have a mild "retroface" structure and you are creating a sort of "psuedo-anteface" with the implants. It is common for people with retrofaces to have relatively normal body fat % or even above average athleticism (I would say you are above average in fitness than the general population) and still have a "double chin"

Anyway what I originally came here for is I wanted to offer a little positivity. It brings me pleasure to point out the top male models this forum seems to worship are almost all >30. One exception is Lucky Blue Smith - but he has the most unremarkable face of them all and is only a famous model because he was scouted as a young child (pre-puberty) and just continued modelling. I believe Jordan Barret is 22 I will give you that. The thing is you will never be 22 again or may never look that young again - so what. I know some peoples head may explode to hear that but you can't be compared to people you will never be. As a man, even when you are and do look 30 there is still a lot on the table.
  • Henry Cavill - 36
  • Sean Opry - 30
  • David Gandy - 39
  • Garret Neff - 35
to name a few. I am not just cherrypicking examples to serve point - Google Male Models and you will see the top ones are mostly in the 30-35 years old range.

One very toxic idea in life (in general) is that it's too late so just give up. Never let the time something takes stop you from doing something because the time will pass anyway.
 
Last edited:

albert_camus

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So the Retin-A and other skin products don't work? I'm not sure how an incel who lives in his parents' basement and spends his time posting on incel forums was able to come to a conclusion from off out of nowhere that directly conflicts with what the the results of millions of dollars worth of university-level research have found, but if it really doesn't work then I'd rather stop wasting my money.
interesting that this is the only point that you are adressing so i guess the other ones are a right hit on the nose?

im younger then you with a degree and already working for years

i know people in your age who already bought a house, have a child and now are going for a divorce.

you are very far behind in everything and you also act (and think) like you are 17 year old.

tell me, isnt it time for you to get your act together? A 30 year old something MAN! who asks strangers how old he looks (in the silent hope to get estimated younger), who hopes that a revision surgery will make such a difference that he will become a chad (when his expectations were already too high at the first time hence the wish for revision), who is still a virgin? with 30sth?

you will never get your prime years back and no retin a in the world will change that. you sound just as desperate as these women who cannot accept ageing and use all filler, botox and skinscream in the book. yet none of them look young. they cant fight ageing and neither can you.

maybe you should accept that and start to approach things like the 30 year sth oldcel you are. the chad lifestyle will never be your lifestyle.

get the eye surgery and fix that mess. enjoy the few good years that are left to you before the physical decay start to hit even more. thanks to ageing you are losing ground everywhere right now. you wont win that fight.

workcel and accept your role as a beta provider. you will find happiness eventually.

you already missed a big time period of your life dont miss the next one by trying to chabge the past.
 

SurgerySoon

Got Custom Implants
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Just wanted to say a couple of things about aging & hairline but while I am here -

@KEy21 The implants will not ever disintegrate. People have had Solid Silicone in their faces for 30, going on 40 years now with no problems and the quality of them is actually optimized now. Delayed implant complications are extremely rare. If you are going to have a complication it will probably happen soon post-op or atleast within the first year. I know of a few interesting examples I'd love to talk about but will spare everyone the wall of technical text.

Also OP I recommend you really consider against adding much more "front loaded" (chin) augmentation to your mandibular plane, it may look unnatural. The only true way to fix a recessed mandible is with BSSO, it can be improved with implants say 50% but when people try to fix a recessed mandible 100% with an implant they will never get there - just the "uncanny valley" you have talked about. (Implants do better at offering forward growth appearance in the midface and do excellent at offering the lateral growth look in the jaw angles). You have a mild "retroface" structure and you are creating a sort of "psuedo-anteface" with the implants. It is common for people with retrofaces to have relatively normal body fat % or even above average athleticism (I would say you are above average in fitness than the general population) and still have a "double chin"

Anyway what I originally came here for is I wanted to offer a little positivity. It brings me pleasure to point out the top male models this forum seems to worship are almost all >30. One exception is Lucky Blue Smith - but he has the most unremarkable face of them all and is only a famous model because he was scouted as a young child (pre-puberty) and just continued modelling. I believe Jordan Barret is 22 I will give you that. The thing is you will never be 22 again or may never look that young again - so what. I know some peoples head may explode to hear that but you can't be compared to people you will never be. As a man, even when you are and do look 30 there is still a lot on the table.
  • Henry Cavill - 36
  • Sean Opry - 30
  • David Gandy - 39
  • Garret Neff - 35
to name a few. I am not just cherrypicking examples to serve point - Google Male Models and you will see the top ones are mostly in the 30-35 years old range.

One very toxic idea in life (in general) is that it's too late so just give up. Never let the time something takes stop you from doing something because the time will pass anyway.
Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure if you remember, but I actually got a custom chin implant (part of my custom wraparound implant) placed back when I went to Dr. Y in March. I think I'm happy with the projection of my chin at this point but agree that I would definitely benefit from double jaw surgery. It's just going to be a matter of if I can ever get the money/time to get it done, as I also want to get the rest of my wraparound implant put in, which obviously would need to be done after double jaw surgery. Then there's also the question of whether or not to revise the midface implants, which would probably also be a better idea to do after double jaw surgery. What complicates matters is that I was hoping to do the aforementioned implant procedures with Dr. Y in March, so I would obviously need to put everything off if I do decide to get double jaw surgery.

I agree with the points you made about the age issue. I honestly just think that one reason so many of the guys here love to give me such a hard time about being 30+ is because it makes them feel like they have a significant chance of turning their incel life status around since they still have youth on their side. In other words, it gives them an opportunity to say, "I might be an unattractive incel, but at least I'm not old like this guy! Maybe there's more of a chance for me than I originally thought!"
 

SurgerySoon

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interesting that this is the only point that you are adressing so i guess the other ones are a right hit on the nose?

im younger then you with a degree and already working for years

i know people in your age who already bought a house, have a child and now are going for a divorce.

you are very far behind in everything and you also act (and think) like you are 17 year old.

tell me, isnt it time for you to get your act together? A 30 year old something MAN! who asks strangers how old he looks (in the silent hope to get estimated younger), who hopes that a revision surgery will make such a difference that he will become a chad (when his expectations were already too high at the first time hence the wish for revision), who is still a virgin? with 30sth?

you will never get your prime years back and no retin a in the world will change that. you sound just as desperate as these women who cannot accept ageing and use all filler, botox and skinscream in the book. yet none of them look young. they cant fight ageing and neither can you.

maybe you should accept that and start to approach things like the 30 year sth oldcel you are. the chad lifestyle will never be your lifestyle.

get the eye surgery and fix that mess. enjoy the few good years that are left to you before the physical decay start to hit even more. thanks to ageing you are losing ground everywhere right now. you wont win that fight.

workcel and accept your role as a beta provider. you will find happiness eventually.

you already missed a big time period of your life dont miss the next one by trying to chabge the past.
No, I didn't respond to the rest of your original post because I honestly don't give a shit about what you have to say. I joined here for the purpose of getting objective advice on how to improve my looks, so I have a tendency to just briefly skim over and ignore irrelevant posts.

What's both funny and said is that when I was your age, I wasn't getting laid, but I also wasn't posting on incel and plastic surgery forums begging for advice on how I can improve my looks. I was basically happy with my routine, hobbies, getting to go on vacations, etc. And yet here you are in the prime of your life - when attractive males are having the times of their lives hooking up with hot girls -- posting on an incel/PS forum while the truly GL guys your age are
indulging in an incredible lifestyle.

It's one thing for someone like me who is past the age bracket of someone who is able to become chad or be a candidate for casual sex to post here for objective advice on how to improve physical flaws, but what does it say about someone who is actually IN that demographic (I.e., you) who posts here regularly instead of spending time with your 20-something peers who are going out, enjoying themselves, and hooking up with hot girls?

Tinder didn't even exist when I was in college, and I couldn't imagine having to lived my 20s in an era of rampant casual sex that I'd have to miss out entirely on. In a way, I feel sorry for you because I know how much it must suck to know how much you're missing out on.

I was never a chad at any point in my life, but I sure as hell didn't spend a single second of my 20s posting on forums like this one, because even I had a fulfilling-enough lifestyle for it to not occur to me to do so. The fact that you're sitting here posting all day instead of getting out there and taking advantage of the lifestyle that GL guys your age are afforded is just sad, and it makes me glad I'm 30+ in my situation and not yours. I would never want to trade places with you.
 

MudslimeMo

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Anyway what I originally came here for is I wanted to offer a little positivity. It brings me pleasure to point out the top male models this forum seems to worship are almost all >30. One exception is Lucky Blue Smith - but he has the most unremarkable face of them all and is only a famous model because he was scouted as a young child (pre-puberty) and just continued modelling. I believe Jordan Barret is 22 I will give you that. The thing is you will never be 22 again or may never look that young again - so what. I know some peoples head may explode to hear that but you can't be compared to people you will never be. As a man, even when you are and do look 30 there is still a lot on the table.
  • Henry Cavill - 36
  • Sean Opry - 30
  • David Gandy - 39
  • Garret Neff - 35
to name a few. I am not just cherrypicking examples to serve point - Google Male Models and you will see the top ones are mostly in the 30-35 years old range.

One very toxic idea in life (in general) is that it's too late so just give up. Never let the time something takes stop you from doing something because the time will pass anyway.


You've just inadvertently proved that age is of critical importance to looks. If you need to look like a PSL8 MM or even a PSL6.5-7 Chad to have a lot on the table in the area of sex and relationships, then you really cannot afford to look much older than 32 or so. I had only one period of time in my life where I was exposed heavily to dating and mating rituals, during which time I never once saw a guy with a girl whom he was older than by a full decade. I routinely heard girls laugh at and trash talk oldcels ( mid 30s+ ) for having the temerity to approach them. One mid 20s girl even called a guy an old man for being 35. I've talked about this in detail in an old post months ago, so there's no need to beat a dead horse by regurgitating what has already been discussed and established countless times in this thread or in any other thread on this site. That is, looking older than early 30s is a very big hit to your SMV. The older you are, the more genetically gifted you need to be to stay relevant in the mating world. You can get away with a shitty brow ridge or even a peanut skull in your 20s, but not in your 30s. You can look like a baby faced twink and still find a niche of girls who will be into that if you're still in your 20s, but - again - not in your 30s.

I'd also like to point out that that 30 and 35 are nothing alike, to the point that they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as if to imply an equal status. It's almost blasphemous to think that a 30 y/o is in the same boat as a 35 y/o. A 35 y/o will look much older than a 30 y/o, and is much more likely to be deliberately excluded from the social groups of people in their 20s. A 30 y/o guy will not look out of place when hanging out with people ( of both genders ) in their mid 20s, whereas a 35 y/o will definitely stick out like a sore thumb. A 35 y/o is well and truly an older adult and no longer thought of as young. He could be considered youngish, but not young. Not only do you look way older and uglier than young people as a 35+ oldcel, but you're also up against social dynamics and tacitly agreed upon rules that prohibit cross generational interaction to a very large extent.


I'm not saying all of this to drag you or @SurgerySoon down to my miserable level of inceldom. I'm genuinely trying to help and offer as much sound advice as I possibly can. The sooner early stage oldcels like me and @SurgerySoon ( late 20s and early 30s ) understand that their days of being within shouting distance of young females are numbered, the better. As for mid 30s+ men who are sub-Chad, their only option is hookercelling if they want women in their mid 20s.


There is no silver lining to looking old, and for that very reason everyone wants to look young. OP desperately wants to look young because he missed out on his youth, just like me. I understand where he's coming from, you evidently don't, otherwise you wouldn't try to reassure him that everything is fine and that looking way past your prime is nothing to worry about. If you had a fulfilling sex life in your 20s ( I'm assuming you're in your 30s ), then looking older isn't a big deal to you because you've been there and done that ( having sex in your youth ).
 

MudslimeMo

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interesting that this is the only point that you are adressing so i guess the other ones are a right hit on the nose?

im younger then you with a degree and already working for years

i know people in your age who already bought a house, have a child and now are going for a divorce.

you are very far behind in everything and you also act (and think) like you are 17 year old.

tell me, isnt it time for you to get your act together? A 30 year old something MAN! who asks strangers how old he looks (in the silent hope to get estimated younger), who hopes that a revision surgery will make such a difference that he will become a chad (when his expectations were already too high at the first time hence the wish for revision), who is still a virgin? with 30sth?

you will never get your prime years back and no retin a in the world will change that. you sound just as desperate as these women who cannot accept ageing and use all filler, botox and skinscream in the book. yet none of them look young. they cant fight ageing and neither can you.

maybe you should accept that and start to approach things like the 30 year sth oldcel you are. the chad lifestyle will never be your lifestyle.

get the eye surgery and fix that mess. enjoy the few good years that are left to you before the physical decay start to hit even more. thanks to ageing you are losing ground everywhere right now. you wont win that fight.

workcel and accept your role as a beta provider. you will find happiness eventually.

you already missed a big time period of your life dont miss the next one by trying to chabge the past.


He's still young enough to get a few years of causal sex, but he needs to get his surgeries done in time. I don't think he'll be able to consciously learn the social skills needed to get girls, though.

Why do you think being a beta provider will make him happy?! How old will the " wife " be? Late 20s+ ? No thanks. Also, you do know that sexless marriages are very common right? Imagine being obliged to betabux while simultaneously being left to rot in your own marriage.
 

Surgerymax

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You've just inadvertently proved that age is of critical importance to looks. If you need to look like a PSL8 MM or even a PSL6.5-7 Chad to have a lot on the table in the area of sex and relationships, then you really cannot afford to look much older than 32 or so. I had only one period of time in my life where I was exposed heavily to dating and mating rituals, during which time I never once saw a guy with a girl whom he was older than by a full decade. I routinely heard girls laugh at and trash talk oldcels ( mid 30s+ ) for having the temerity to approach them. One mid 20s girl even called a guy an old man for being 35. I've talked about this in detail in an old post months ago, so there's no need to beat a dead horse by regurgitating what has already been discussed and established countless times in this thread or in any other thread on this site. That is, looking older than early 30s is a very big hit to your SMV. The older you are, the more genetically gifted you need to be to stay relevant in the mating world. You can get away with a shitty brow ridge or even a peanut skull in your 20s, but not in your 30s. You can look like a baby faced twink and still find a niche of girls who will be into that if you're still in your 20s, but - again - not in your 30s.

I'd also like to point out that that 30 and 35 are nothing alike, to the point that they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as if to imply an equal status. It's almost blasphemous to think that a 30 y/o is in the same boat as a 35 y/o. A 35 y/o will look much older than a 30 y/o, and is much more likely to be deliberately excluded from the social groups of people in their 20s. A 30 y/o guy will not look out of place when hanging out with people ( of both genders ) in their mid 20s, whereas a 35 y/o will definitely stick out like a sore thumb. A 35 y/o is well and truly an older adult and no longer thought of as young. He could be considered youngish, but not young. Not only do you look way older and uglier than young people as a 35+ oldcel, but you're also up against social dynamics and tacitly agreed upon rules that prohibit cross generational interaction to a very large extent.


I'm not saying all of this to drag you or @SurgerySoon down to my miserable level of inceldom. I'm genuinely trying to help and offer as much sound advice as I possibly can. The sooner early stage oldcels like me and @SurgerySoon ( late 20s and early 30s ) understand that their days of being within shouting distance of young females are numbered, the better. As for mid 30s+ men who are sub-Chad, their only option is hookercelling if they want women in their mid 20s.


There is no silver lining to looking old, and for that very reason everyone wants to look young. OP desperately wants to look young because he missed out on his youth, just like me. I understand where he's coming from, you evidently don't, otherwise you wouldn't try to reassure him that everything is fine and that looking way past your prime is nothing to worry about. If you had a fulfilling sex life in your 20s ( I'm assuming you're in your 30s ), then looking older isn't a big deal to you because you've been there and done that ( having sex in your youth ).
Then we will just have to make OP a Male Model ;)

And when I was 20 I was getting my heart broken by a lying 30 year old handsome man who was 5'8, had moderate crows feet, a few grey hairs, and wide palate with an impressive mandible. Many of my HOT female friends had similar experiences going for post-college age (Grad students, guys with a legit career, a house, etc) and falling head over heals for these guys. These were not veiwed as "older men" or "daddys" (which there are girls with a somewhat anomolous attraction to) but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the fit, well-taken care of 30ish year old guy who isn't balding, completely grey,terrible skin quality, etc.
 
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MudslimeMo

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Then we will just have to make OP a Male Model ;)


You're trying to get him to get his maxilla forward through surgery. While I agree that he would benefit tremendously from that - I did point out more than 6 months ago that his maxilla is retruded btw - he would need to dump even more money into this whole thing, piling up the debt. He would also need to postpone the eye area overhaul. He isn't getting any younger and needs to get this done as soon as possible. He will have to make some tough decisions.
 

SurgerySoon

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I also had a widows peak when I was a kid. I'm still norwooding rapidly and irreversibly, even if NW2.5 is almost certainly the worst NW level I'll get to. I will not hit NW3 within the next decade, that I'm confident of. In any case, you need a several year old picture to compare the current ones to. The picture should clearly expose your hairline and not have hair too long that it covers your forehead.


I know that you've already done facelifts. I was just discussing them in general + trying to dissuade you from doing a full facelift, unless you have a reasonably good chance at looking 4 years younger at least in your mid 30s. I looked up the cost. You're looking at 8K or more. That's expensive for something that may or may not work, unlike chin or jaw augmentation surgery or the eye area overhaul. However, if you can get a result as amazing as this one..



..then even 15K wouldn't be too much to pay. I'd even pay 20K for a result that good if I were attractive enough genetically to benefit ( which I'm not ). The foid in the pic went from - apparently - early to mid 50s, to early 40s. From invisible to virtually ALL men, to 100% fuckable. She just got an additional 7 years of hooking up with 30 something men. I'll say it again: I would happily pay 20K to look 7-10 years younger. I'd choose looking 25 at 33 at PSL5.5, over being an age-adjusted PSL 6-6.5 35 year old and looking it.



You will be too old to get girls in their mid 20s once you look like a guy too deep in his 30s. I wouldn't use the word "might" if I were you. One-off flukes ( like a drunken hookup for instance ) don't count to me. I'm talking about consistently hooking up with or at least authentically dating these girls. That's why my mother has been pestering me to get an arranged marriage lately, and has also been telling me to lose weight. She knows that I will be rejected for age alone by young women if I don't get married within the next 24 months at most. If you want to fuck these girls, it's now or never, and no amount of surgeries in your mid 30s will change that unless you end up looking absolutely stunning from the eye area overhaul. Even then, your age will make keeping these girls as steady fwbs an uphill battle you most likely won't win. I take it that you're unwilling to swallow your pride and become a beta provider, which is a wise choice financially, but don't think for a second that you can actually become one easily for a young girl. Hence why my mother wants me to get married asap, as age still matters, even in a fake betabux scenario. You could stoop to very low levels and tolerate a polyamorous relationship with a foid in exchange for your resources. She gets to use you for money and fuck you, but also fuck a young Chad with your acquiescence. The only thing that would stop me personally from accepting this would be STDs, other than losing money. I don't have much self-esteem left.




The way I cope with missing out on youth is knowing that I will be the only one among my peers who will be financially independent in about a decade. I should be able to retire and go near-full time neet in my early 40s. As things stand, and at my current rate of expenditure and savings, it's going to be a reality.
While we're on the subject of evaluating facelift results, check out these:









Anyways, before I get carried away with posting links to before/after photos, I'm not saying that any of those women became "hot" after their facelifts; however, I'm just trying to prove the point (as you did with your example) that for certain patients, they literally take 10+ years off a person's visual age. I'm not sure if I have the necessary "base" to be one of those patients who would benefit to such an extreme extent, but I think it's still worth leaving as an option on the table.

I realize that I won't be attractive to girls in their 20s once I start looking undoubtedly mid-30s. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I may already be at that point, as a few random people IRL have guessed my age to be as old as 38+. But even if I'm not at that point yet, again, the most salient point to consider is the one I've mentioned before -- I simply might not be able to get the money together in time to get the eye area overhaul done. I hope I am able to, but not being able to is a possibility I have no choice but to consider, and multiple people have already mentioned that if I wait too much longer to undergo these procedures, it's simply going to be too late for me (if it isn't already).

Also, whether or not the eye area overhaul + jaw implant results in me having some semblance of a sex life is going to depend on other factors as well, such as me being able to make the move to a much larger city with a much larger female population, more nightclubs and bars, and other settings that are considered prime territory for meeting girls.

If I'm not able to get the surgeries done soon, or alternatively, if I begin aging at an even more rapid pace and the products I'm using turn out to be ineffective at doing anything to prevent that, then I'm not sure what I'll do. If I don't rope, I'm assuming I'll just force myself to look forward to seeing an escort once a month or so.

BTW, I agree with you that no matter how much better-looking these surgeries make me, there's almost zero chance that I'll be able to develop the social skills, self-confidence, and general NT personality that are necessary to actually be able to talk to girls and make them willing to hookup with me. If my hunch turns out to be accurate, then I guess all of this will end up having been for nothing (aside from satisfying my own personal desire to look better).

On the topic of facelifts again -- I know that @Surgerymax said before that I'm not yet a candidate for a traditional facelift, but IMO the most noticeable signs of aging that I have (facially) are nasolabial folds and visibly sagging undereye fat pads. So I know that I wouldn't benefit from a facelift as comprehensively as someone who is 10+ years older who exhibits even more signs of aging, but as long as I'm okay with not getting my full money's worth, would it actually be a bad idea to pursue a facelift at my age (32)?

Also, while I've tagged you, what's your opinion on whether I should continue to apply Retin-A on a nightly basis? Obviously some people think I'm wasting my time completely with it since my aging genetics are apparently in the bottom 10th %ile, so I'm not sure if it's worth it to keep spending my money on it and subjecting myself to the side effects (which are especially harsh during the winter).
 

SurgerySoon

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He's still young enough to get a few years of causal sex, but he needs to get his surgeries done in time. I don't think he'll be able to consciously learn the social skills needed to get girls, though.

Why do you think being a beta provider will make him happy?! How old will the " wife " be? Late 20s+ ? No thanks. Also, you do know that sexless marriages are very common right? Imagine being obliged to betabux while simultaneously being left to rot in your own marriage.
To respond to the latter half of your post, he's not suggesting that I become a beta provider because he thinks it's a move to make that's in my best interests. He's just trolling me. Basically, back when I joined the forums in late 2018 and started posting, the majority of responses to me could be classified under three categories: 1.) Those that offered legitimate surgery advice to correct my objective flaws; 2.) Those that utilized what essentially amounted to hyperbole to insult me, my surgery goals, and my audacity for thinking that I could ever improve anything at all (think Undisputed's posts), and; 3.) Posts that took a more understated tone than those in category #2 which revolved around telling me that at my age, I should worry about things other than looks and assume the role of the beta "working class provider male" since (in a sociological sense) I'm officially in the age bracket when most males transition to that "phase" of life. The post you quoted would be classified under category #3.
 

SurgerySoon

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Then we will just have to make OP a Male Model ;)
LOL, that's a nice thought (in a doesn't-hurt-to-dream sort of way), but I know it's not realistic at all to expect to get anything close to an outcome like that. As MudslimeMo pointed out above, I'd have to move my maxilla forward to a significant extent. If I had the time and money to undergo double jaw surgery, I would go for it, hands-down. On a related note, what's your opinion of undergoing premaxillary implant placement to somewhat mimic the visual outcome of moving the maxilla forward via LF1? Would such an implant be worth getting in my case if I'm not going to be in the position to undergo double jaw surgery anytime soon?
 

Surgerymax

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While we're on the subject of evaluating facelift results, check out these:









Anyways, before I get carried away with posting links to before/after photos, I'm not saying that any of those women became "hot" after their facelifts; however, I'm just trying to prove the point (as you did with your example) that for certain patients, they literally take 10+ years off a person's visual age. I'm not sure if I have the necessary "base" to be one of those patients who would benefit to such an extreme extent, but I think it's still worth leaving as an option on the table.

I realize that I won't be attractive to girls in their 20s once I start looking undoubtedly mid-30s. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I may already be at that point, as a few random people IRL have guessed my age to be as old as 38+. But even if I'm not at that point yet, again, the most salient point to consider is the one I've mentioned before -- I simply might not be able to get the money together in time to get the eye area overhaul done. I hope I am able to, but not being able to is a possibility I have no choice but to consider, and multiple people have already mentioned that if I wait too much longer to undergo these procedures, it's simply going to be too late for me (if it isn't already).

Also, whether or not the eye area overhaul + jaw implant results in me having some semblance of a sex life is going to depend on other factors as well, such as me being able to make the move to a much larger city with a much larger female population, more nightclubs and bars, and other settings that are considered prime territory for meeting girls.

If I'm not able to get the surgeries done soon, or alternatively, if I begin aging at an even more rapid pace and the products I'm using turn out to be ineffective at doing anything to prevent that, then I'm not sure what I'll do. If I don't rope, I'm assuming I'll just force myself to look forward to seeing an escort once a month or so.

BTW, I agree with you that no matter how much better-looking these surgeries make me, there's almost zero chance that I'll be able to develop the social skills, self-confidence, and general NT personality that are necessary to actually be able to talk to girls and make them willing to hookup with me. If my hunch turns out to be accurate, then I guess all of this will end up having been for nothing (aside from satisfying my own personal desire to look better).

On the topic of facelifts again -- I know that @Surgerymax said before that I'm not yet a candidate for a traditional facelift, but IMO the most noticeable signs of aging that I have (facially) are nasolabial folds and visibly sagging undereye fat pads. So I know that I wouldn't benefit from a facelift as comprehensively as someone who is 10+ years older who exhibits even more signs of aging, but as long as I'm okay with not getting my full money's worth, would it actually be a bad idea to pursue a facelift at my age (32)?

Also, while I've tagged you, what's your opinion on whether I should continue to apply Retin-A on a nightly basis? Obviously some people think I'm wasting my time completely with it since my aging genetics are apparently in the bottom 10th %ile, so I'm not sure if it's worth it to keep spending my money on it and subjecting myself to the side effects (which are especially harsh during the winter).
The infraorbital fat compartments should be corrected at the time of lower lid retraction surgery/canthoplasty. I don't have your pictures infront of me I think they are many pages back at this point.

The nasolabial fold will not be helped much by a facelift but much more by bimax (sometimes called "reverse facelift" if done for that indication" or second best, a paranasal-premaxillary implant to give more nasal base support and work out that nasolabial fold some.

I see what you are asking with going through the surgery with the understanding that it is for a less of an impact. Sometimes this is an option in people who could wait but they would still benefit some. I really don't think it will help you much - would recommend Fraxel laser treatments. If you actually have considerable skin laxity/poor skin quality especially in regard to elasticity then it may be a possibility.


As for the tretinoin. I am a fan. It definitely works, I know it's easy to be paranoid that things that work slowly and subtley aren't helping at all. Don't let the it's over comments get to you. I use Retin-A 0.05 every night and will be moving up to 0.1 when this tube runs out.

I think the 3 most worth-while creams (not scams, celebrity-tier regimen, every dermatologist who cares about their appearance uses them) are
  1. Tretinoin
  2. Growth Factor Serum (Like TNS)
  3. High Quality Peptide Serum (Also like TNS)
in that order. Tretinoin is probably the most cost effective at a hundred and some dollars per 40gram tube at most pharmacies. The other two are a near couple hundred dollars but there is a double dispensing pump/container that dispenses both Growth Factor/Peptide serum which saves some money.

If you are having problems with the Retin-A then I ask what concentration are you using? And do you use a moisturizer?

LOL, that's a nice thought (in a doesn't-hurt-to-dream sort of way), but I know it's not realistic at all to expect to get anything close to an outcome like that. As MudslimeMo pointed out above, I'd have to move my maxilla forward to a significant extent. If I had the time and money to undergo double jaw surgery, I would go for it, hands-down. On a related note, what's your opinion of undergoing premaxillary implant placement to somewhat mimic the visual outcome of moving the maxilla forward via LF1? Would such an implant be worth getting in my case if I'm not going to be in the position to undergo double jaw surgery anytime soon?
as above
 

SurgerySoon

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The infraorbital fat compartments should be corrected at the time of lower lid retraction surgery/canthoplasty. I don't have your pictures infront of me I think they are many pages back at this point.

The nasolabial fold will not be helped much by a facelift but much more by bimax (sometimes called "reverse facelift" if done for that indication" or second best, a paranasal-premaxillary implant to give more nasal base support and work out that nasolabial fold some.

I see what you are asking with going through the surgery with the understanding that it is for a less of an impact. Sometimes this is an option in people who could wait but they would still benefit some. I really don't think it will help you much - would recommend Fraxel laser treatments. If you actually have considerable skin laxity/poor skin quality especially in regard to elasticity then it may be a possibility.


As for the tretinoin. I am a fan. It definitely works, I know it's easy to be paranoid that things that work slowly and subtley aren't helping at all. Don't let the it's over comments get to you. I use Retin-A 0.05 every night and will be moving up to 0.1 when this tube runs out.

I think the 3 most worth-while creams (not scams, celebrity-tier regimen, every dermatologist who cares about their appearance uses them) are
  1. Tretinoin
  2. Growth Factor Serum (Like TNS)
  3. High Quality Peptide Serum (Also like TNS)
in that order. Tretinoin is probably the most cost effective at a hundred and some dollars per 40gram tube at most pharmacies. The other two are a near couple hundred dollars but there is a double dispensing pump/container that dispenses both Growth Factor/Peptide serum which saves some money.

If you are having problems with the Retin-A then I ask what concentration are you using? And do you use a moisturizer?



as above
Thanks. I know that bimax surgery would probably improve my looks just as much as eye area surgery, but I just don't know if I'll ever be in the position of having the money or time to get it done. If I had the money to do bimax + eye area surgery + jaw implant surgery today, I'd schedule the procedures to be done one after another ASAP. To answer your question regarding the tretinoin, I'm using the 0.1% strength. The side effects aren't very severe (just some mild peeling around the eyes), and I only notice them when it's dry/cold outside. It should start warming up here in a few weeks, so the side effects shouldn't be an issue for too much longer. Not currently using a moisturizer.

I also started injecting a peptide called GHK-Cu about a week ago, although I don't know if it will end up making much of a difference in the long run.
 

Surgerymax

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Thanks. I know that bimax surgery would probably improve my looks just as much as eye area surgery, but I just don't know if I'll ever be in the position of having the money or time to get it done. If I had the money to do bimax + eye area surgery + jaw implant surgery today, I'd schedule the procedures to be done one after another ASAP. To answer your question regarding the tretinoin, I'm using the 0.1% strength. The side effects aren't very severe (just some mild peeling around the eyes), and I only notice them when it's dry/cold outside. It should start warming up here in a few weeks, so the side effects shouldn't be an issue for too much longer. Not currently using a moisturizer.

I also started injecting a peptide called GHK-Cu about a week ago, although I don't know if it will end up making much of a difference in the long run.
Believe me I hear you about the expense.

You need to be using a moisturizer, on or off retinoids. On them it is an absolute sin not to use moistuizer. I almost didn't bother asking assuming "of course everyone uses moisturizer" it seems like one of those things that is a given but I am finding more and more that it is an extremely valueable but overlooked part of skincare. I actually find it totally shocking. If I could only use 1 thing for my skin it would be a moisturizer. In fact I would Like to ammend my 1. 2. 3. list above. I took moisturizer as a given but actually moisturizer would be at the top, hands down. It may not do much for antiaging but it makes your skin look and feel better day-to-day.

If you are on 0.1% I recommend continuing with your regular regimen and using a moisturizer. I have used many kinds and have found none were really special. They do not need to be expensive. Look in the skin care ailse at Walmart or chain pharmacy.

If this doesn't help either go down to 0.05% or start applying the 0.1% every other day. You can also mix this with a moisturizer to effectively make it a 0.5% (but are still applying the same amount of fractions of mg's to your face.
 

MudslimeMo

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Anyways, before I get carried away with posting links to before/after photos, I'm not saying that any of those women became "hot" after their facelifts; however, I'm just trying to prove the point (as you did with your example) that for certain patients, they literally take 10+ years off a person's visual age. I'm not sure if I have the necessary "base" to be one of those patients who would benefit to such an extreme extent, but I think it's still worth leaving as an option on the table.

I realize that I won't be attractive to girls in their 20s once I start looking undoubtedly mid-30s. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I may already be at that point, as a few random people IRL have guessed my age to be as old as 38+. But even if I'm not at that point yet, again, the most salient point to consider is the one I've mentioned before -- I simply might not be able to get the money together in time to get the eye area overhaul done. I hope I am able to, but not being able to is a possibility I have no choice but to consider, and multiple people have already mentioned that if I wait too much longer to undergo these procedures, it's simply going to be too late for me (if it isn't already).

Also, whether or not the eye area overhaul + jaw implant results in me having some semblance of a sex life is going to depend on other factors as well, such as me being able to make the move to a much larger city with a much larger female population, more nightclubs and bars, and other settings that are considered prime territory for meeting girls.

If I'm not able to get the surgeries done soon, or alternatively, if I begin aging at an even more rapid pace and the products I'm using turn out to be ineffective at doing anything to prevent that, then I'm not sure what I'll do. If I don't rope, I'm assuming I'll just force myself to look forward to seeing an escort once a month or so.

BTW, I agree with you that no matter how much better-looking these surgeries make me, there's almost zero chance that I'll be able to develop the social skills, self-confidence, and general NT personality that are necessary to actually be able to talk to girls and make them willing to hookup with me. If my hunch turns out to be accurate, then I guess all of this will end up having been for nothing (aside from satisfying my own personal desire to look better).

On the topic of facelifts again -- I know that @Surgerymax said before that I'm not yet a candidate for a traditional facelift, but IMO the most noticeable signs of aging that I have (facially) are nasolabial folds and visibly sagging undereye fat pads. So I know that I wouldn't benefit from a facelift as comprehensively as someone who is 10+ years older who exhibits even more signs of aging, but as long as I'm okay with not getting my full money's worth, would it actually be a bad idea to pursue a facelift at my age (32)?

Also, while I've tagged you, what's your opinion on whether I should continue to apply Retin-A on a nightly basis? Obviously some people think I'm wasting my time completely with it since my aging genetics are apparently in the bottom 10th %ile, so I'm not sure if it's worth it to keep spending my money on it and subjecting myself to the side effects (which are especially harsh during the winter).

You bring up a very good point in your first paragraph. If you get a full facelift at 40 that will make you look 33ish, then that actually wouldn't be a bad idea at all if it's guaranteed to make you look 7 years younger AND you don't mind hooking up with post prime women instead of young females. Your other option is - as you have pointed out - getting one now but with less bang for your buck, meaning looking 28 instead of 25. What complicates matters is that looking 4 years younger now at your current age is much, much more beneficial than looking 7 or 8 years younger at 40, if your ultimate goal is getting women who are mid 20s or younger. You CAN get early 20s females at late 20s - I've seen it and heard about it - but not if you clearly look like you're in your 30s, which is definitely the case if you look 32 or 33. Even mid 20s can be out of reach at that age, because you're still competing with men considerably younger than you.


Anyone who has ever guessed your age at 38 is either cognitively impaired, or is being disingenuous. You don't look anywhere near your mid 30s, let alone looking that old ( 38 ). You look exactly early 30s, and without a foot in your mid 30s, never let anyone make you doubt that. Everyone here, including myself, guessed your age at early 30s. I also said in my very first post addressed to you before posting on this thread that you might pass for 29, but not younger.


I can't really say anything as to the merits of using Retin-A without knowing how much it costs per day and whether you can easily afford it without it putting much of a dent on your finances. If buying it and using it constitute nothing more than a mere after-thought to you, then I don't see the point in thinking about whether or not it would be a better idea to stop using it. Having poor ageing genetics isn't a strong enough argument against it, because you don't actually know how badly you will end up ageing with or without it. If the cost is nothing to worry about, then why not continue using Retin-A? You will not have lost much time, effort or money if it ends up being ineffective.


I'd explore many more options before considering roping. You could always buy sex, that's one thing you can have comfort in if your surgeries don't get you girls. You will still end up looking much better after the eye area overhaul if you get it, so it will not have been for nothing.


Now that you've mentioned escortcellng, isn't it illegal in the US? You'll be risking your career by going that route. Buying sex indirectly through covert contracts like sugardaddying or betabuxing would be much better options, if you avoid pregnancy scares and marriage, of course.
 

Jasons

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All this stupid talk of girls in their 20's being out of bounds once you get past a certain age. Ha ha. People on this forum need to man the fuck up and start realizing that it's different for men. There are loads of young women who go crazy for older guys, 40's and 50's i'm serious. This entire wanting to freeze time in your early 20's as if it's some golden age is so cissy and pathetic. Men can look fucking good into their 60's, with the right base. No not every 21yo girl wants to date a 35yo or older but who cares, there are older guys out there with crazy sex lives. I have a friend of facebook who is in his early 50s and lives on a kibbutz and regularly fucks cute young girls in their 20s who pass through the kibbutz. He has weathered looks + charisma and can make them laugh and charm them 100x better than some cheesy 21 year old whose entire sense of humor has been influenced by memes.