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I am trying to figure out ways to increase bone remodeling to safe levels. Bone remodeling is the process of osteoclast resorbing old bone tissue away and osteoblast forming new bone tissue in its place, and osteocytes for the lack of a better analogy responds to stress on the bone so you could say it sends the message to the bones to respond to mewing for example, osteoytes will recognize the pressure and communicate to the osteoclast and blast cells.

The body remodels 10% of bone tissue per year on average. That is 0.0274% of bone per day that is remodeled. As you can see mewing for noticeable results as an adult will take years, luckily remodeling would be accelerated in the area of focus due to the physical stress induced  but it is not fast either way Expecting your ramus to grow and an adult and your gonial angle to improve will take years. Best solution I got is to speed up bone remodeling.

Remodeling can not happen without osteoclast, the boogeyman that everyone is trying to reduce to maintain bone mass in older age. You can raise osteoclast to extremes but you need to raise osteoblast to extremes as well to protect yourself from net bone less. Another thing is that without an appropriate amount of osteoblast to go with osteoclast, the bone remodeling is also stunted in that bone movement is brittle rather than pliable and flexible.

Here are the 4 easiest ways I know of to raise osteoclast

1. Inhibit estrogen. This is very effective at raising osteoclast to extremes, perhaps the most effective. Completely crushing estrogen to the ground is too strong though, not even heaps of testosterone for osteoblast and GH can level this perfectly. Also even if we could boost osteoblast enough to counter this we would potentially remodel towards other weak features. Check out this study for instance where an aromatase deficient male was producing 2,000 ng/dl test since puberty but had shit tier bone mass and features. Click here

2. GH. GH is the best method since it raises both osteoclast and blast together and at a rate where the osteoblast increase is greater for a net bone increase.

3. Cortisol...... I don't think anybody wants a cortisol face. Only method I would mess with for this myself is using GHRP2 or GHRP6 over Ipramorelin since either of those nets an increase in bone mass even with the rise in bone resorbing cortisol. (Found alternative ways to increasing osteoclast)

4. Prolactin.... nobody wants a lot of this either. Copy what I said about GHRP's from above, same story here. (found alternative ways to increase osteoclast)

5. Parathyroid hormone. This s a viable option as well but methods of raising PTH are not so easy. I have yet to find a good solution to this

6. Calcitonin. This might increase remodeling, I am finding mixed studies on this however. Salmon contains calcitonin.

update new:
7. BMP2 increases resorption while also increasing formation and net bone increase

8. VEGF increases resorption while also increasing formation and net bone increase. This also has similar but more potent bone vascularizing functions to esrogen, might be able to remedy some side effects from too little estrogen.

I am considering both BMP2 and VEGF as novel keys to this solution along with GH.
I have been looking into this subject, I am hoping some people here might want to reserch into this with me.

I am leaning on the idea of cycling high amounts of DHT to antagonize estrogen instead of using an AI since DHT will raise free T for T related effects while DHT in its own will have its own bone anabolic benefits and running GH. I have other ideas but this appears to be the most stable route for now.
 

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From what i can remember from reading way back..

Bone morphogenic protein

and then the basics vit k2 phosphorous calcium magnesium and d3
 
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driftwood said:
From what i can remember from reading way back..

Bone morphogenic protein

and then the basics vit k2 phosphorous calcium magnesium and d3
BMP2 is relatively anabolic but I dont know it if holds back resorption

K2 harms bone resorption. K2 kills osteoclast cells and results in reduced bone resorption. Some fool just read an article and posted to SH about K2 increasing remodeling but it only helps the part involved with forming bone and harms the resorption which is the great bottleneck to remodeling in the first place.

You may thicken your facial bones and gain fWHR from K2 over time but you will never compress your midface and pull your maxilla forward when the bones are now slower to change.
 

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Machiavellian said:
driftwood said:
From what i can remember from reading way back..

Bone morphogenic protein

and then the basics vit k2 phosphorous calcium magnesium and d3
BMP2 is relatively anabolic but I dont know it if holds back resorption

K2 harms bone resorption. K2 kills osteoclast cells and results in reduced bone resorption. Some fool just read an article and posted to SH about K2 increasing remodeling but it only helps the part involved with forming bone and harms the resorption which is the great bottleneck to remodeling in the first place.

You may thicken your facial bones and gain fWHR from K2 over time but you will never compress your midface and pull your maxilla forward when the bones are now slower to change.
You clearly know more about this than I do.

I just figured anything that was good for osteoporosis would help our efforts here.

There were some random old people on a forum claiming to grow taller and crap from k2.

The Ray Peat guy that the Nutrition forum on SH was based on claims to have widened his jaw by taking oral DHEA so much so that his wisdom teeth came through on its own.
[hr]
Victory said:
DHT will cause hair loss, aging and bad skin. GH is probably your best bet for this, however it is very expensive. I'm not so sure about those peptides or whatever.
There are GH analoges GLL has one on his site.  Im too chicken shit to fuck with it.
[hr]
I've even read bad stuff about oral d3 lately for bone health and artery calcification.   :mU2qVMF:
 
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VictoryDHT will cause hair loss, aging and bad skin. GH is probably your best bet for this, however it is very expensive. I'm not so sure about those peptides or whatever.

It's a price to pay

I guess I can post my alternative hair loss methods soon. I am getting thinning again since I haven't used any of it in a year. As for skin, DHT inhibits elastin but GH will boost it. If your in your early 20's I doubt a temporary decrease in elastin is going to make you look old. There is some evidence that  DHT is not so damaging to hair and acne if your curb the estrogen and cortisol down since most people today have excess estrogen. I am one of those people that gets less acne with DHT but I also get joint dryness and reduced libido which are signs of estrogen being lower than ideal (not actually nuked, so it should work well for my goals of raising bone resorption without net bone loss after GH).

Alternatively an aromatase inhibitor can be used for those who fear DHT sides. Technically using an AI also raises DHT as a result of increased test flowing with less being aromatized, and more acting on 5ar. You could run a very small dose of finasteride with the AI as long as the end result is estrogen is cut in half or 1/3rd of normal in the end. The increased test is still good for osteoblast but DHT is a bone anabolic agent in its own worth considering, although not essential for this goal.

Peptides can provide a substantial enough effect to make people sleep better, have more energy, less joint soreness, feel like your 20 when your actually 50, and all the stuff that people who need more of are looking for. Only advantage to raw HGH is to get bodybuilder mass which is more promising to maximize remodeling. I am personally going to do a GHRP with a GHRH in the spring. Probably GHRP2 or GHRP6 due to cost instead of ipramorelin. I am a bit concerned though with how my libido will be with GHRP2/6 raising a bit of prolactin and cortisol on me on top of DHT already reducing libido.
[hr]
driftwood said:
Machiavellian said:
driftwood said:
From what i can remember from reading way back..

Bone morphogenic protein

and then the basics vit k2 phosphorous calcium magnesium and d3
BMP2 is relatively anabolic but I dont know it if holds back resorption

K2 harms bone resorption. K2 kills osteoclast cells and results in reduced bone resorption. Some fool just read an article and posted to SH about K2 increasing remodeling but it only helps the part involved with forming bone and harms the resorption which is the great bottleneck to remodeling in the first place.

You may thicken your facial bones and gain fWHR from K2 over time but you will never compress your midface and pull your maxilla forward when the bones are now slower to change.
You clearly know more about this than I do.

I just figured anything that was good for osteoporosis would help our efforts here.

There were some random old people on a forum claiming to grow taller and crap from k2.

The Ray Peat guy that the Nutrition forum on SH was based on claims to have widened his jaw by taking oral DHEA so much so that his wisdom teeth came through on its own.
[hr]
That idea that anything good for osteoporosis is probably why we lack mewing results after a year.

I will try and see what I find on DHEA. I am using it now to combat the joints I get on DHT. 25mg a day works with the joints for me, libido is slightly improved. Acne is increased to more than I get on nothing where as I get less acne with DHT due to the rebalancing of the T/E ratio.

DHEA is hard to study. It converts to quite a few hormones.
 

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I'd be interested in hearing how [font='Open Sans', Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]ipramorelin works if you consider that.[/font]

[font='Open Sans', Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You could also go up the ladder and try pregnenalone or progesterone.  I've tried both.  Preg dissolved under the tongue gave me a very odd high which lasted for an hour or so, but was very intense.[/font]
 
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driftwood said:
I'd be interested in hearing how [font='Open Sans', Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]ipramorelin works if you consider that.[/font]

[font='Open Sans', Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You could also go up the ladder and try pregnenalone or progesterone.  I've tried both.  Preg dissolved under the tongue gave me a very odd high which lasted for an hour or so, but was very intense.[/font]
I've used pregnenolone in the past for nootropic reasons, pregnenolone has way too many factors to account for in this one since it converts to all hormones in the body. Progesterone I will look into a bit more, appears to raise osteoblast while leaving osteoclast unaffected.

I was looking into BMP and BMP2, I found this. Looks like BMP2 increases resorption but is still more anabolic than it is catabolic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8592944

Icariin can up BMP2 but it increase a few other things as well. About to investigate into everything Icariin does now. Hopefully this is a one ingredient safe bone resorber.
 

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I had some purified Icariin years ago.  It was expensive and maybe the single worst thing i ever put into my mouth.

Tell me what you find.  This is broscience at it's best but I used to be addicted to pubmed scavenger hunting
 
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driftwood said:
I had some purified Icariin years ago.  It was expensive and maybe the single worst thing i ever put into my mouth.

Tell me what you find.  This is broscience at it's best but I used to be addicted to pubmed scavenger hunting
Do you mean 99% Icariin, or Icaritin?

What were you trying to accomplish with that, were you by any chance trying to do LSJL while supplementing with that?
 
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Victory said:
So what would you say is the best stack?

Removing vitamin k2
Taking gh peptides
supplementing DHT, fin and AI?

Seems very expensive
HGH for the rich, GH peptides for the moderate, Natty supplements for the poor
DHT ideally. AI's for the people more concerned about DHT sides. Fin on top of AI for the very scared.
Reduce supplemental K2, underdosing a multivitamin is OK to avoid becoming deficient.
Icariin as a way to raise BMP2 might be in, need to investigate further into icariin's other effects

Need to find an ideal way to raise PTH

I am still considering other approaches as well. This is more of a research thread than a method set in plan.

If someone plans to go 6 months or longer than alernating from DHT and AI's would be better to avoid shutdown. I am probably doing DHT 3 months straight and than 1 month on an AI as a PCT. That would be 4 months of accelerated bone remodeling. Not enough to do a full transformation but enough to boost progress.
 
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Icariin is a no go, despite BMP2 elevation it raises a lot of different things and the end result is greatly reduced bone resorption

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23987492
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20554188

While at it I found this result where Icariin repaired root resorption induced by rapid paletal expansion. Someone on here will be interested in this one.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22818561



VEGF is great for both bone formation while increasing resorption

Example of how VEGF forms bones (seals growth plates) through vascularizing bone tissue which is exactly what estrogen does.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK6134/

"VEGF-activated angiogenesis during bone regeneration" (Angionesis is a factor to vascularrizing bone tissue, essential for formation)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16122595

VEGF increases osteoclast activity and bone resorption (still more anabolic than catabolic in the end)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18640270

More on VEGF and osteoclast
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014579300015209

VEGF on osteoclast in teeth and tooth movement
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12598545


Need to find out ways to raise BMP2 and VEGF without other growth factors which unfortunately ruined Icariin from being ideal for this goal.
 

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I have a hard time believing something like Trenbolone combined with GH pep's wouldn't be the best carpet bombing approach out there.

Tren is a scary compound though so test + GH with whatever supplement stack is deemed the most effective will probably be the best way
 
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driftwood said:
I have a hard time believing something like Trenbolone combined with GH pep's wouldn't be the best carpet bombing approach out there.

Tren is a scary compound though so test + GH with whatever supplement stack is deemed the most effective will probably be the best way
Tren as well as many steroids reduce bone resorption which I don't want reduced.

If Tren was relevant to bone remodeling I would have mentioned it long ago. People seriously over rate tren on bone mass, other steroids do more. Deca does more for bone mass than tren.
 

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Machiavellian said:
driftwood said:
I have a hard time believing something like Trenbolone combined with GH pep's wouldn't be the best carpet bombing approach out there.

Tren is a scary compound though so test + GH with whatever supplement stack is deemed the most effective will probably be the best way
Tren as well as many steroids reduce bone resorption which I don't want reduced.

If Tren was relevant to bone remodeling I would have mentioned it long ago. People seriously over rate tren on bone mass, other steroids do more. Deca does more for bone mass than tren.
Most steroids decrease bone mass/bone mineral density, decrease collagen synthesis, and have an overall negative impact on the health, size, and strength of bones, joins, and connective tissue. Trenbolone especially is horrible for the bones. So is testosterone. The only steroids that help the bones are nandrolone, equipoise, oxandrolone, primobolan.
 
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asapanon said:
Machiavellian said:
driftwood said:
I have a hard time believing something like Trenbolone combined with GH pep's wouldn't be the best carpet bombing approach out there.

Tren is a scary compound though so test + GH with whatever supplement stack is deemed the most effective will probably be the best way
Tren as well as many steroids reduce bone resorption which I don't want reduced.

If Tren was relevant to bone remodeling I would have mentioned it long ago. People seriously over rate tren on bone mass, other steroids do more. Deca does more for bone mass than tren.
Most steroids decrease bone mass/bone mineral density, decrease collagen synthesis, and have an overall negative impact on the health, size, and strength of bones, joins, and connective tissue. Trenbolone especially is horrible for the bones. So is testosterone. The only steroids that help the bones are nandrolone, equipoise, oxandrolone, primobolan.
I am aware of excessive testosterone inhibiting height growth like freezing it still with or without estrogen. Not sure of the mechanism.

Nandrolone is very good for bone mass for sure, but is not good for the bone resorption part even with the increased VEGF it still reduces resorption. Oxandrolone came to mind a few times for this but I am not at all familiar with equipoise for bones, I never looked into that for anything other than knowing that GH15 approves of it.

It is looking like GH, BMP2 and VEGF are the best ones for the goal but GH and DHT are the most readily available and easy to manipulate. What's your familiarity with DHT?
 

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Machiavellian said:
asapanon said:
Machiavellian said:
Tren as well as many steroids reduce bone resorption which I don't want reduced.

If Tren was relevant to bone remodeling I would have mentioned it long ago. People seriously over rate tren on bone mass, other steroids do more. Deca does more for bone mass than tren.
Most steroids decrease bone mass/bone mineral density, decrease collagen synthesis, and have an overall negative impact on the health, size, and strength of bones, joins, and connective tissue. Trenbolone especially is horrible for the bones. So is testosterone. The only steroids that help the bones are nandrolone, equipoise, oxandrolone, primobolan.
I am aware of excessive testosterone inhibiting height growth like freezing it still with or without estrogen. Not sure of the mechanism.

Nandrolone is very good for bone mass for sure, but is not good for the bone resorption part even with the increased VEGF it still reduces resorption. Oxandrolone came to mind a few times for this but I am not at all familiar with equipoise for bones, I never looked into that for anything other than knowing that GH15 approves of it.

It is looking like GH, BMP2 and VEGF are the best ones for the goal but GH and DHT are the most readily available and easy to manipulate. What's your familiarity with DHT?
Androgens exhibit a dual effect on ephiphyseal plates. First of all, aromatizing compounds like testosterone aromatize in to estrogen, which directly causes the growth plates to seal. However, even non-aromatizing compounds that are heavily androgenic, like trenbolone or masteron, or to a lesser extent testosterone, cause growth plate fusion like you said. This is because androgens have a unique action in which they speed up bone metabolism and growth velocity, typically resulting in an abrupt height increase  if in puberty followed by premature growth plate fusion. This typically results in a lower overall height if the androgenic/anabolic ratio of the compound leans on the androgenic side. However in non aromatizing compounds like oxandrolone (anavar) that are more anabolic, it will probably make you taller

I'm extremely familiar with DHT. All of this is my territory, really. I was on steroids for years and spent years on a steroid forum. I've read countless studies on this stuff and am very well educated in endocrinology
 

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i don't have a tiny bit of clue what are you talking about, but I have a question for you; is there any substance from all this endless bro-chemistry that it actually worked and significantly improved one's facial bone structure (except HGH and it's effect on lower jaw)?
 

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No.

And I'm sorry to burst y'alls bubble, but HGH will almost certainly have a negative impact on your face. It doesn't "masculinize" the face. It's not an androgen, or male hormone. What it does it it promotes tissue growth quite randomly. Yeah, your jaw may grow. So might your nose. Or your ears, or the soft tissue on random parts of your face. Look at people with giantism, which is characterized by high levels of HGH. they're ugly as fuck
 
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REM said:
i don't have a tiny bit of clue what are you talking about, but I have a question for you; is there any substance from all this endless bro-chemistry that it actually worked and significantly improved one's facial bone structure (except HGH and it's effect on lower jaw)?
This thread isn't about taking the compound and having it work on its own. If that were the case I would have taken a different angle than bone resorption. People want to try mewing to drive the maxilla up and forward to hopefully get the benefits in adulthood, but it is a slow process for bone turnover. This is what I am trying to speed up.  If you want to simply grow your mandible I already got a solution for that and proven.

Finding studies where any of this is used for the same goal is non existent cause right now nobody is trying to make their mandible remodel with a longer ramus and better gonial angle. Implants are the standard. Nobody is trying to move the maxilla forward and up besides the orthotropics crowd and the lefort people. All I got is just what is known about these growth factors and what it should do.

It may seem like a radical long shot on here but tell me this. If we rewind to a time before leg lengthening surgery existed and I told you of a plan to break someones bones and hook up a bunch of screws and rods through their legs to hold the bones 3-2 mm apart from connecting at all times always pulling them further apart as new bone fills in, would you have laughed at me? Probably.



asapanon said:
No.

And I'm sorry to burst y'alls bubble, but HGH will almost certainly have a negative impact on your face. It doesn't "masculinize" the face. It's not an androgen, or male hormone. What it does it it promotes tissue growth quite randomly. Yeah, your jaw may grow. So might your nose. Or your ears, or the soft tissue on random parts of your face. Look at people with giantism, which is characterized by high levels of HGH. they're ugly as fuck
I am unsure if your responding to the above or the whole thread. Repeating what I said to the other comment is that this is not about using GH to masculinize the face but to accelerate bone remodeling. As for acromegaly sufferers and pituitary giants they release GH in a bleed rather than a few strong surges which has been shown effect how the body reacts to GH.

To your other post a bit up I was intending to respond there, just needed a break from reading all of this growth factor stuff.


For whoever quotes me here, please break up the 2 post.
 

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I was just talking about the whole thread. HGH and any steroid will have a negative influence on the face.

Steroids literally destroy your facial aesthetics through several known and several unknown methods srs